Why Would Essex Police Not Mention The Fact That Neville Called The Police?

[nugnug]

it is a bit but there could be an explanation for it.

[Jan]

So  there was only one log shown to the jury  then later the other log/or rolling log was discovered and there was some confusion as to which one ( or part of the log was discovered later)

was there a reason why the EP did not show the jury the whole rolling log? And why don't they release the original now so any arguments can be quashed.

Was it more to do with the timings with Bonnet sticking to his guns that the call was 3.36 and that the clock was not wrong - and the car was sent earlier than that?

I just get a feeling that somewhere along the line timings are relevant , because there were lots of arguments about them and the police are not usually that slapdash about something so important.

I agree with caroline that if Neville did call then that would have shut the relatives up straight away - so I can not think of any reason they would not tell them unless they were all still in a quandary because something had gone wrong with the raid and they were keeping their options open .

[nugnug]

mind you dont really know what was said to the relatives they might of said it.

and allso were asuming the police have told each other everything.

[scipio_usmc]

So  there was only one log shown to the jury  then later the other log/or rolling log was discovered and there was some confusion as to which one ( or part of the log was discovered later)

was there a reason why the EP did not show the jury the whole rolling log? And why don't they release the original now so any arguments can be quashed.

Was it more to do with the timings with Bonnet sticking to his guns that the call was 3.36 and that the clock was not wrong - and the car was sent earlier than that?

I just get a feeling that somewhere along the line timings are relevant , because there were lots of arguments about them and the police are not usually that slapdash about something so important.

I agree with caroline that if Neville did call then that would have shut the relatives up straight away - so I can not think of any reason they would not tell them unless they were all still in a quandary because something had gone wrong with the raid and they were keeping their options open .

The times are relevant for what?

Jeremy defenders make a big deal out of the times because they are trying to ridiculously suggest that police received a call from Nevill after the call from Jeremy.

They want to pretend that at 3:36 Nevill called police directly.  Nevill supposedly called Jeremy at 3:10AM.  At 3:36 no one was shot yet and he decided to call police since Jeremy had not showed?  He spoke to police for a couple of minutes then Sheila took the phone off the hook and marched him upstairs around 3:38 and managed to kill everyone including herself (including the kitchen struggle) all before police arrived?   

The time issue is not significant at all except in establishing how long the gap was between when he called Julie and finally got around to calling police.  The two roomates most certain say he called around 3AM.  The phone call to police was after 3:20 so what was he doing and why during this gap?  That is the siginficance of the time issue.

At trial he attributed the gap between receiving Nevill's call and phoning police to not realizing at first that here was any urgency.  He said only after thinking about it a while did he get worried. 

[curiousessex]

The reason Essex Police did not mention that Nevill called the police is because there is no evidence that Nevill did call the police.

In fact the opposite is true.

It is Jeremy who provides the evidence that indicates Nevill did not call the police.

Jeremy described the timings and sequence of telephone calls whilst the events were unfolding and during his subsequent statements / interviews.

It is Jeremy's description of these events which causes Jeremy most problems in terms of his conviction and guilt for the following reasons.

By mentioning an alleged telephone call being received it becomes the case that if the murderer is not Sheila then through Jeremy's unique knowledge in reporting the tragic events then Jeremy has to be instrumental and involved in the killings.

Jeremy also provided a description of events which was technically impossible to have occurred.

Jeremy initially says he received an alleged telephone call from Nevill. The telephone line went dead and then Jeremy says he immediately rang back and got an engaged tone. Jeremy continued to use his memory redial facility on his telephone whilst getting the engaged tone. This Jeremy detailed to the police. (If the telephone line was open at that time Jeremy would not have been able to use his telephone to immediately ring back.)

Within the police telephone log which Jeremy and his website argue is a record of a further alleged telephone call from Nevill to the police it is detailed......

(i) GPO checked the telephone line and confirmed the line was open

And

(ii) Message passed to CD by son of Mr Bamber.

If this log is to detail an alleged telephone call as received from Nevill to the police then why will the police have got the GPO to check the telephone line to White House Farm. - This is something that is unique to Jeremy's reporting of events.

It does not make any sense for the police to have received a telephone call from Nevill and to then get the GPO to check the telephone line to White House Farm.

Afterall the police did not get the GPO to check the telephone line to 9 Head Street (Jeremy's address) after they had received a telephone call from Jeremy.

However, if Jeremy had dialled the telephone number for 9 Head Street from a telephone in the kitchen at White House Farm and then left the same White House Farm telephone off the hook whilst Jeremy returned home to 9 Head Street then if Jeremy was to immediately ring White House Farm having later arrived back at 9 Head Street then Jeremy would have got an engaged tone. The engaged tone would be repeatedly heard if Jeremy was to repeatedly use his memory redial facility on his telephone. If the GPO were to later remotely check the telephone line at White House Farm it would be confirmed the telephone line at White House Farm was open.

What is critical in this instance is the time delay that is required in Jeremy's described and detailed  'engaged tone' state to have occurred. Such a 'engaged tone' situation does not occur immediately if a telephone line suddenly goes dead or is interrupted.  As such Jeremy would not have been able to immediately dial out from his telephone at 9 Head Street having just allegedly received a frantic telephone call from Nevill.

[guest154]

The reason Essex Police did not mention that Nevill called the police is because there is no evidence that Nevill did call the police.

In fact the opposite is true.

It is Jeremy who provides the evidence that indicates Nevill did not call the police.

Jeremy described the timings and sequence of telephone calls whilst the events were unfolding and during his subsequent statements / interviews.

It is Jeremy's description of these events which causes Jeremy most problems in terms of his conviction and guilt for the following reasons.

By mentioning an alleged telephone call being received it becomes the case that if the murderer is not Sheila then through Jeremy's unique knowledge in reporting the tragic events then Jeremy has to be instrumental and involved in the killings.

Jeremy also provided a description of events which was technically impossible to have occurred.

Jeremy initially says he received an alleged telephone call from Nevill. The telephone line went dead and then Jeremy says he immediately rang back and got an engaged tone. Jeremy continued to use his memory redial facility on his telephone whilst getting the engaged tone. This Jeremy detailed to the police. (If the telephone line was open at that time Jeremy would not have been able to use his telephone to immediately ring back.)

Within the police telephone log which Jeremy and his website argue is a record of a further alleged telephone call from Nevill to the police it is detailed......

(i) GPO checked the telephone line and confirmed the line was open

And

(ii) Message passed to CD by son of Mr Bamber.

If this log is to detail an alleged telephone call as received from Nevill to the police then why will the police have got the GPO to check the telephone line to White House Farm. - This is something that is unique to Jeremy's reporting of events.

It does not make any sense for the police to have received a telephone call from Nevill and to then get the GPO to check the telephone line to White House Farm.

Afterall the police did not get the GPO to check the telephone line to 9 Head Street (Jeremy's address) after they had received a telephone call from Jeremy.

However, if Jeremy had dialled the telephone number for 9 Head Street from a telephone in the kitchen at White House Farm and then left the same White House Farm telephone off the hook whilst Jeremy returned home to 9 Head Street then if Jeremy was to immediately ring White House Farm having later arrived back at 9 Head Street then Jeremy would have got an engaged tone. The engaged tone would be repeatedly heard if Jeremy was to repeatedly use his memory redial facility on his telephone. If the GPO were to later remotely check the telephone line at White House Farm it would be confirmed the telephone line at White House Farm was open.

What is critical in this instance is the time delay that is required in Jeremy's described and detailed  'engaged tone' state to have occurred. Such a 'engaged tone' situation does not occur immediately if a telephone line suddenly goes dead or is interrupted.  As such Jeremy would not have been able to immediately dial out from his telephone at 9 Head Street having just allegedly received a frantic telephone call from Nevill.

Wow. That's a good post CE. Certianly got my mind alert.

[susan]

curiousessex brilliant post I have thought of late that the phone call scenario was Jeremy Bambers main downfall. The details which he gives to describe the whole phone call from Ralph are not credible at all  and when I studied details in depth I could see they did not add up as he changes things so much and so much of it does not make sense no wonder the police thought he was guilty before they had their evidence.  Jeremy Bamber should have gone home to bed and wait instead he complicated the whole matter by trying to create an alibi for himself and he did just the opposite

[Reader]

There is nothing in the log (info wise) that is different to the Jeremy log. The same information is present on both logs

You should know that is incorrect. Bonnett's log doesn't give Jeremy's telephone number or address, whereas Pc West's log does. More significantly, Sheila's age is given differently in the two logs, 26 yrs in Bonnett's log, but 27 yrs in Pc West's log.

Jeremy also provided a description of events which was technically impossible to have occurred.

Jeremy's account is not technically impossible. If Nevill called Jeremy and then abruptly ended the call, Jeremy would have been correct in saying the line went dead. If Nevill then picked the receiver up again and left it off-hook, Jeremy could have tried to ring him back and would have got the engaged tone when he did so, and the operator would correctly find the WHF telephone was off-hook (which is the term used for its state). I am not suggesting that Nevill did this for no reason; he might have been calling the police straight away or there might have been some other reason that we can never know for sure.

Pc West notes the operator gave information about the WHF line at 03:42, which is just after when Jeremy's call would have ended had it started at 03:36 and had Pc West's evidence about how long it lasted been correct. In 1985, the operator could check the line immediately when asked.

[Caroline]

You should know that is incorrect. Bonnett's log doesn't give Jeremy's telephone number or address, whereas Pc West's log does. More significantly, Sheila's age is given differently in the two logs, 26 yrs in Bonnett's log, but 27 yrs in Pc West's log.

It's not incorrect! Why would Bonnet's log contain Jeremy's number when it wasn't called in by him? It was passed to him by West who gave him Neville's details. The age was probably relayed incorrectly. There really is no mystery when you know that the time on Bonnet's log is 03:26 and both he and West couldn't have made a mistake. There was no call from Neville, there can't have been, he'd have called 999 if he thought it was necessary to call the police. There is no reason why a call from Neville would have been withheld in the early stages when Jeremy was a suspect and you have to enter the realms of fantasy to dream one up. It doesn't make sense no matter which way you look at it.

[curiousessex]

Wow. That's a good post CE. Certianly got my mind alert.

Thank you Mat.

There would also be more than a total of 2 off telephone logs if Nevill had rang Essex Police.

If Nevill had rung Chelmsford Police Station there would be total of 4 off telephone logs .

These being the 2 off for Jeremy's telephone call to the police as already exist plus 2 off more for Nevill's call to Chelmsford Police Station. These would include an additional telephone log to cover Nevill's call to Chelmsford Police Station and then a further additional telephone log to cover Chelmsford Police Station relaying the details of Nevill's call to HQ control room as has occurred with Jeremy's telephone call to Chelmsford Police Station. All telephone logs would be detailed as being received from 'exchange' line as they are for both of the telephone logs which cover Jeremy's call to Chelmsford Police Station.

If Nevill had dialled 999 there would be a total of 3 off telephone logs. These being the 2 off for Jeremy's telephone call to the police which already exist plus an additional 1 off telephone log to cover a '999' call from Nevill. The 2 off telephone logs which cover Jeremy's call to Chelmsford Police Station would be marked as being received as 'exchange' line, which they are. The additional third telephone log identifying a 999 call from Nevill would be marked up as being received as '999' calls.

The fact of the matter is there are only 2 telephone call logs and they both support and refer to the single telephone call as made by Jeremy to Chelmsford Police Station.

Even the people who wrote the referenced telephone call logs say they both refer to a single telephone call. The information contained within the telephone call logs is consistent with what they state 'Message passed to CD by son of Mr Bamber' and 'GPO checked the telephone line and confirmed the line was open.'

[curiousessex]

curiousessex brilliant post I have thought of late that the phone call scenario was Jeremy Bambers main downfall. The details which he gives to describe the whole phone call from Ralph are not credible at all  and when I studied details in depth I could see they did not add up as he changes things so much and so much of it does not make sense no wonder the police thought he was guilty before they had their evidence.  Jeremy Bamber should have gone home to bed and wait instead he complicated the whole matter by trying to create an alibi for himself and he did just the opposite

Susan

Thank you

I concur re 'Jeremy should have gone home to bed and wait'.

[Jan]

Susan

Thank you

I concur re 'Jeremy should have gone home to bed and wait'.

see I am still confused

I thought that Jeremy did not think his father had called. Even in court when the log was shown he just assumed it was as you were saying that it was presented as his phone call passed on to another.

It was not until the whole rolling log was revealed (long after the court case )that there seemed to be some odd differences with the timings and the wording that were not evident when only one part was presented? then it was thought there was a possibility he had called ?

Also I though that the EP have still refused to release the original log so it could be checked to make sure there were no changes?

Am I completely confused and wrong?

[Caroline]

see I am still confused

I thought that Jeremy did not think his father had called. Even in court when the log was shown he just assumed it was as you were saying that it was presented as his phone call passed on to another.

It was not until the whole rolling log was revealed (long after the court case )that there seemed to be some odd differences with the timings and the wording that were not evident when only one part was presented? then it was thought there was a possibility he had called ?

Also I though that the EP have still refused to release the original log so it could be checked to make sure there were no changes?

Am I completely confused and wrong?

Jeremy didn't initially say his father called the police - how could he know that? However, he is claiming it now. Since the discovery (or finding) of the log West wrote when he called, he is using that to to say there must have been 2 separate calls.

[Jan]

Jeremy didn't initially say his father called the police - how could he know that? However, he is claiming it now. Since the discovery (or finding) of the log West wrote when he called, he is using that to to say there must have been 2 separate calls.

yes sort of what I thought. I guess if you have been trying for so many years to find documents - for whatever reason - then you are going to query everything. 

[Caroline]

yes sort of what I thought. I guess if you have been trying for so many years to find documents - for whatever reason - then you are going to query everything.

The campaign team have made a big issue out of it and really haven't thought it through. Sometimes they make things worse for him and just end up sounding desperate.