Action 116 - DS Stan Jones...

[scipio_usmc]

I disagree that Sheila had been dead for 6/7 ? hours before being found. Have you ever seen a body that has lain dead for this length of time ? Especially a once active one ?

Yes I have seen a body after 7 hours.  I saw the same body around 4 hours after death.  I saw no difference at all.  If you actually touch the body and know what you are doing  you will probably be able to tell differences but there was nothing obvious just from looking.  The skilled can tell if rigor set in by looking at the face and neck but the changes are so subtle that you need to be skilled ot tell just from sight.

It takes a long time before you physically see something extremely noticable.  When a body is dead a long time it bloats- that is something visually obvious.  The skin changed color as well.  That is when the body stinks.  Decomposition does these things.  Decomp doesn't set in that fast.  The only decomp I have seen were in corpses days old, I don't know when decomp began on said corpses but it sure as hell wasn't the first 12 hours after death.

Dr Craig saw her in person and had no problem with police saying she died before police arrived on the scene.  Full rigor sets in after 8-12 hours.  She was in full rigor by 3:30PM and probably before so that alone means at least 8-12 hours passed by the time of the autopsy.  8-12 hours earlier means she died at minimum 3:30AM-7:30AM and could have died even earlier because she could have been in full rigor sooner than this. That means she had to have died before police even entered the building.

She had to have been dead more than 3 hours before the photos were taken.  Trying to say that one could tell by looking at a photo whether she was dead 3 hours or 8 hours at the time of the photo is sheer fantasy.   
 

[Mr. Gee]

Yes I have seen a body after 7 hours.  I saw the same body around 4 hours after death.  I saw no difference at all.  If you actually touch the body and know what you are doing  you will probably be able to tell differences but there was nothing obvious just from looking.  The skilled can tell if rigor set in by looking at the face and neck but the changes are so subtle that you need to be skilled ot tell just from sight.

It takes a long time before you physically see something extremely noticable.  When a body is dead a long time it bloats- that is something visually obvious.  The skin changed color as well.  That is when the body stinks.  Decomposition does these things.  Decomp doesn't set in that fast.  The only decomp I have seen were in corpses days old, I don't know when decomp began on said corpses but it sure as hell wasn't the first 12 hours after death.

Dr Craig saw her in person and had no problem with police saying she died before police arrived on the scene.  Full rigor sets in after 8-12 hours.  She was in full rigor by 3:30PM and probably before so that alone means at least 8-12 hours passed by the time of the autopsy.  8-12 hours earlier means she died at minimum 3:30AM-7:30AM and could have died even earlier because she could have been in full rigor sooner than this. That means she had to have died before police even entered the building.

She had to have been dead more than 3 hours before the photos were taken.  Trying to say that one could tell by looking at a photo whether she was dead 3 hours or 8 hours at the time of the photo is sheer fantasy.   
 

I believe you are informing someone who knows already scipio.

[lookout]

Nope.Sheila was NOT in full rigor at 03.30 at all. Nobody could have manipulated her arm/hand to the extent that it WAS manipulated if she'd been in full rigor.
There was NO blotchiness that would have indicated Livor and if she'd lain where she was for 6/7 hours,her legs would have been peuce.

Even the blood showed red when it should have been brown,and someone must have closed her eyes,as she wouldn't have done that herself without the reflex action of blinking. They'd have remained open.

[scipio_usmc]

Nope.Sheila was NOT in full rigor at 03.30 at all. Nobody could have manipulated her arm/hand to the extent that it WAS manipulated if she'd been in full rigor.
There was NO blotchiness that would have indicated Livor and if she'd lain where she was for 6/7 hours,her legs would have been peuce.

Even the blood showed red when it should have been brown,and someone must have closed her eyes,as she wouldn't have done that herself without the reflex action of blinking. They'd have remained open.

You are making contradictory claims, claims that are nonsense and in addition showing you don't even know what the autopsy stated

1) If she had not even been in full rigor at the time of the autopsy then she can't have been in full rigor hours earlier when her arm was moved so your claim makes no sense that it was in full rogr at the time of the photo but not the autopsy.  The opposite argument that if she was in full rigor at the time of the autpsy this meant she had to be in full rigor hours earleir doesn't follow either.

2) When someone is in full rigor it is indeed possible to move their joints.  Your suggestion such is not possible is not true they do nto harden to the point where they are like stone and can't be moved.  Moving joints them causes the rigor to release early.  If only partial rigor set in then rigor can set in more and lock it in the new position but might simply stop in that location.

3) At the time her hand was moved for the photo it was 7-8 hours after death so full rigor probably had not set in yet though again it is possible to move an arm that is in full rigor anyway.   

4) The autopsy report says she was in full rigor at the time of the autopsy.

[lookout]

My posts are always effing nonsense to you,aren't they,to55er ? Is it because I'm RIGHT ??

[Stephanie]

My posts are always effing nonsense to you,aren't they,to55er ? Is it because I'm RIGHT ??

Lookout

[Mr. Gee]

You are making contradictory claims, claims that are nonsense and in addition showing you don't even know what the autopsy stated

1) If she had not even been in full rigor at the time of the autopsy then she can't have been in full rigor hours earlier when her arm was moved so your claim makes no sense that it was in full rogr at the time of the photo but not the autopsy.  The opposite argument that if she was in full rigor at the time of the autpsy this meant she had to be in full rigor hours earleir doesn't follow either.

2) When someone is in full rigor it is indeed possible to move their joints.  Your suggestion such is not possible is not true they do nto harden to the point where they are like stone and can't be moved.  Moving joints them causes the rigor to release early.  If only partial rigor set in then rigor can set in more and lock it in the new position but might simply stop in that location.

3) At the time her hand was moved for the photo it was 7-8 hours after death so full rigor probably had not set in yet though again it is possible to move an arm that is in full rigor anyway.   

4) The autopsy report says she was in full rigor at the time of the autopsy.

Unfortunately we shall never know as Dr. Craig only certified her dead and did not estimate the time of death. I don't know, Ducky can do these things in NCIS so why can't they do it in real life.