Now that the order of death has been established:

[Alias]

There is the possibility that two rifles were used.

[grahameb]

Only if they can find the other rifle. The only other .22 rifle that was found was Pargeter's and he insists that he took the bolt action home with him a week earlier.

[scipio_usmc]

There is the possibility that two rifles were used.

Based on what?  The casings were all matched to the Anschutz.  While Mike alleges time and again the lab repalced some of the casings with ones they fired themselves he has not offered any evidence to support his allegations.

In the meantime are you suggesting 2 killers standing side by side each using a different rifle since all victims except 1 had bullets that could not be matched definitively or 1 killer taking a second rifle and then going around shooting the victims again with it?

 

[Alias]

Based on what?  The casings were all matched to the Anschutz.  While Mike alleges time and again the lab repalced some of the casings with ones they fired themselves he has not offered any evidence to support his allegations.

In the meantime are you suggesting 2 killers standing side by side each using a different rifle since all victims except 1 had bullets that could not be matched definitively or 1 killer taking a second rifle and then going around shooting the victims again with it?

 

In case Jeremy did it, it is no secret that I think he would have had an accomplice.

[scipio_usmc]

Only if they can find the other rifle. The only other .22 rifle that was found was Pargeter's and he insists that he took the bolt action home with him a week earlier.

He said he took the whole gun with him.  He said prior to this visit he left the gun there sans bolt but that he took it home with him after this visit.

The others present when the moderator was found all say they didn't see his gun there so corroborate it had not been there. 

In any event that had different rifling, 6 lands and grooves.  None of the bullets could be established to have been fired form a weapon with 6 lands and grooves.  Mike kept suggesting there was a gun with no lands and grooves that fired the bullets that had no rifling marks left but that is silly those fragments simply were lacking detail because the exterior where the markings were left had broken off or mushroomed too much to determine. For those bullets the only way to detemrine what gun they are fired from (beyond simply the caliber of gun tha tfired them) is to look at the casing and also the other bullets if any fired the same time to see if those were matched.

For instance, it was assessed the 3 shots fired into Nicholas were fied in quick succession and the same with the 5 into Daniel, and saame with the 2 into Nevill's upper right side of the head and 2 into the top of his head.  So if you know which gun fired 1 shot you know it was virtually certian to have fired the rest. 

Thanks to the shell casings though we know all were fired form the same gun and the above inquiry is not necessary though it does corroborate the findings of the marks on the casings.

 

[scipio_usmc]

In case Jeremy did it, it is no secret that I think he would have had an accomplice.

Why would they shoot the same victim together?

[scipio_usmc]

In case Jeremy did it, it is no secret that I think he would have had an accomplice.

Since you don't bother with Mike's threads you probably never saw the deabte where I challenged him on this issue in the following manner:

Here is a listing of the shots with those in black being those matched to the Anschuts by rifling marks and the yellow being unable to be matched by rifling marks and having to be matched via the shell casings:

Master Bedroom

Nevill
PV/2  (Shoulder) (5L) (NL) (no RM)
PV/5 (jaw) fragment broken from either PV10 or PV11
PV/10 (lip)           (WL) (no RM)
PV/11 (neck) (4L) (WL) (no RM)
Arm/chest Graze wound-1 of the following: DRH/5, 9, 15, or 35  (all 8 L&G) (NL) (RM)   

June
PV/23 ( 0 )(NL) (no RM)
PV/24 (4L) (NL) (has RM)
PV/25 (5L) (NL) (has RM)
PV/26 (5L) (NL) (no RM)
3 of the following DRH/5, 9, 15, or 35 (all 8 L&G) (NL) (RM)   

Sheila
PV/19 (WL) (no RM)
PV/20 (NL) (RM)

Kitchen

Nevill
PV/3 (skull) (NL)
PV/4 (skull) (NL) (RM)
PV/8 (skull) (WL)
PV/9 (skull) (?)

Twins

Daniel
PV/29 (8 L&G) (NL) (RM)
PV/34 (WL)
PV/35 (WL)
PV/36 (WL)
DRH/36 (8 L&G) (NL) (RM)

Nicholas
PV/30 (3L) (NL)
PV/31 (NL) (RM)
[bullet 3 fragmented into small parts in the head and was not recovered]

So at best the yellow shots could have been delivered by a second weapon but the shell casings prove they were all from the same weapon.

Setting aside the shell casings, what are the chances that every bullet fired by the Anschutz remained intact enough to have rifling marks to match them to it but every single bullet fired by a different gun ended up fragmenting or otherwise being mangled to such a degree that no rifling marks would be found on any?

The laws of averages suggest tha tat least 1 bullet from the second gun would be intact enough to reveal markings demonstrating a second gun was involved.  Naturally the shell casings woudl help reveal that as well though.

Moreover, even if 2 guns had been used it would be obvious some of the bullets that could not be matched would have been fired from the Anschutz because again the law of averages is tha tnot all the mangled bullets would come from the same gun some would have to be from the Anschutz as well.

What are the chances of 2 men firing together at the same victim to hit nearly the same area together?  The answer is not likely so it would be unrealistic to believe the 4 shots fired into Nevill's head, or the twins were fired by multiple people.

Excluding those shots were are down to only 4.  Three fired into Nevill's left side and the non-fatal shot into Sheila.

2 men standing in the same spot with Nevill's left profile to them and firing together seems unlikely. June is the only one who all 7 shots could be matched for sure.  It seems unlikely someone could shoot her 7 times with the Anschutz while someone else shoots Nevill 3 times with a different rifle and Nevill would still be in the same spot fo rth eshooter to then turn the Anschutz on his left side still.  Worse with 2 people the chance of Nevill getting out of the room at all let alone alive significantly diminishes because that leaves an extra person to block the door and no reason for the stuggle in the kitchen evne if he managed to get out of th ebedroom because someone would probably still have bullets to shoot him as opposed to both guns being empty.

Also why would another gun be used to shoot Sheila the second time.  Both shots fired seconds apart someone else using a second gun seonds later is silly you would want to use the same gun because you would have no way to gurantee the rifling would not survive and you want the casings to match. 

The same is true for any victim.  You have no way to know if the rifling would be damaged or not and would want the casings to all match.

An accomplice using a dfferent gun removed from the scene instead of also left next to Sheila would mess up everything.   Sheila using 2 different guns would look suspicious enough already without the gun being taken away thus proving someone else was there and fled the scene.

If Brett had been there helping him I just can't see Nevill making it out of the bedroom the struggle would have been in there with 2 on 1.     

[Alias]

Since you don't bother with Mike's threads you probably never saw the deabte where I challenged him on this issue in the following manner:

Here is a listing of the shots with those in black being those matched to the Anschuts by rifling marks and the yellow being unable to be matched by rifling marks and having to be matched via the shell casings:

Master Bedroom

Nevill
PV/2  (Shoulder) (5L) (NL) (no RM)
PV/5 (jaw) fragment broken from either PV10 or PV11
PV/10 (lip)           (WL) (no RM)
PV/11 (neck) (4L) (WL) (no RM)
Arm/chest Graze wound-1 of the following: DRH/5, 9, 15, or 35  (all 8 L&G) (NL) (RM)   

June
PV/23 ( 0 )(NL) (no RM)
PV/24 (4L) (NL) (has RM)
PV/25 (5L) (NL) (has RM)
PV/26 (5L) (NL) (no RM)
3 of the following DRH/5, 9, 15, or 35 (all 8 L&G) (NL) (RM)   

Sheila
PV/19 (WL) (no RM)
PV/20 (NL) (RM)

Kitchen

Nevill
PV/3 (skull) (NL)
PV/4 (skull) (NL) (RM)
PV/8 (skull) (WL)
PV/9 (skull) (?)

Twins

Daniel
PV/29 (8 L&G) (NL) (RM)
PV/34 (WL)
PV/35 (WL)
PV/36 (WL)
DRH/36 (8 L&G) (NL) (RM)

Nicholas
PV/30 (3L) (NL)
PV/31 (NL) (RM)
[bullet 3 fragmented into small parts in the head and was not recovered]

So at best the yellow shots could have been delivered by a second weapon but the shell casings prove they were all from the same weapon.

Setting aside the shell casings, what are the chances that every bullet fired by the Anschutz remained intact enough to have rifling marks to match them to it but every single bullet fired by a different gun ended up fragmenting or otherwise being mangled to such a degree that no rifling marks would be found on any?

The laws of averages suggest tha tat least 1 bullet from the second gun would be intact enough to reveal markings demonstrating a second gun was involved.  Naturally the shell casings woudl help reveal that as well though.

Moreover, even if 2 guns had been used it would be obvious some of the bullets that could not be matched would have been fired from the Anschutz because again the law of averages is tha tnot all the mangled bullets would come from the same gun some would have to be from the Anschutz as well.

What are the chances of 2 men firing together at the same victim to hit nearly the same area together?  The answer is not likely so it would be unrelaistic to believe the 4 shots fired into Nevill's head, or the twins were fired by multiple people.

Excluding those shots were are down to only 2.  The one fired into Nevill's outer left shoulder and the non-fatal shot into Sheila.

2 men standing in the same spot with Nevill's left profile to them seems unlikely.

Also why would another gun be used to shoot Sheila the second time.  Both shots fired seconds apaprt someone else using a second gun seonds later is silly you would want to use the same gun because you would have no way to gurantee the rifling would not survive and you want the casings to match. 

the same is true for any victim.  You have no way to know if the rifling would be damaged or not and woudl want the casings to all match.

An accomplice using a dfferent gun taken from the scene and not left next to Sheila would mess up everything.

Thanks for making this - I will have a closer look at it tomorrow.

[scipio_usmc]

Thanks for making this - I will have a closer look at it tomorrow.

Obviously I mispoke and flipped the Nevill shots- the shoulder is the one matched to the Anschutz the other 3 could not be except by the shell casings.  I will modify it so as not to confuse/mislead anyone.