Now that the order of death has been established:

[No-Bits]

You say that Nevill received 4 shots in the bedroom? Wouldn't this have rendered him incapable of putting up any kind of fight with anybody? Perhaps even the fight might have therefore been one sided?

Also how can you be sure that the shots were distributed consecutively in the bedroom? The killer may have returned to "finish off" June?

Again if the children were shot last wouldn't there have been the danger of then waking up? Scipio said that if that was so then  Nevill and June would have woken up. Well maybe that is exactly what happened, since they were both found out of their bed? The children on the other hand were apparently sleeping soundly and undisturbed.

It can only be is I have outlined. The bullet number can't work any other way.

[grahameb]

It can only be is I have outlined. The bullet number can't work any other way.

I can't work out things like this. Never very good at maths.

[Adam]

Evidence shows Neville was shot first upstairs, four times. These were most likely the torso shots which enabled him to get downstairs. 

Evidence shows he was shot further three times downstairs. As well as beaten by Sheila. 

There is no evidence of a fight in the upstairs main bedroom. Meaning Neville must have immediately gone downstairs after receiving his four upstairs bullets. 

Neville's four upstairs bullets were either - 

Before June's seven bullets.  Meaning Neville let Sheila fire her remaining seven bullets  into an awake June,  as he went downstairs. 

After an awake June had been shot seven times. Meaning Neville watched an awake June get shot seven times,  and did nothing. 

During both an awake Neville & June being shot accurately alternatively. Meaning both adults allowed themselves to be shot, before Neville went downstairs. Although if Sheila had ran out of bullets there was not a reason for Neville to go downstairs.  


In any of these situations, would it be the natural reaction for the father/husband/grandfather of the house to go downstairs upon receiving the first four bullets ?

[No-Bits]

Eleven bullets were fired in the main bedroom.

The rifle holds 11 bullets so it is likely the rifle was emptied in one go.

Both Neville & June would have been awake. Neville had rang Jeremy and he would have warned June. Sheila was having a major psychotic rage.

Sheila's 7 shots into June were accurate. The extra bullets fired into June suggests she was shot first. While June was being shot 7 times, it was the perfect opportunity for Neville to do something. But he did not. He let Sheila fire 7 bullets into his wife.

The other option is Neville was shot first. But Neville must have been moving as they were just torso shots. This was the perfect time for June to fight back, to protect her husband. Neville could have fought back as well. But no, June did nothing to assist Neville  and let herself then get shot seven times, mainly while she was in bed. Neville going downstairs and leaving Sheila to shoot June.

Sheila could not shoot both June & Neville at the same time. But neither Neville or June tried to help each other when the gun was not being fired at them.

Why do people think this was the case ?

It's not possible for there to have been 11 bullets when entering the master bedroom, only 10.

Otherwise the reload after shooting an immobile Nevill 4 times would make a total of 26 bullets, there were only 25.

There was only one extra breach bullet added and it was simply due to a partial reload, there was no special attempt to load 11 bullets.

[grahameb]

Evidence shows Neville was shot first upstairs, four times. These were most likely the torso shots which enabled him to get downstairs.

Evidence shows he was shot further three times downstairs. As well as beaten by Sheila.

There is no evidence of a fight in the upstairs main bedroom. Meaning Neville must have immediately gone downstairs after receiving his four upstairs bullets.

Neville's four upstairs bullets were either -

Before June's seven bullets.  Meaning Neville let Sheila fire her remaining seven bullets  into an awake June,  as he went downstairs.

After an awake June had been shot seven times. Meaning Neville watched an awake June get shot seven times,  and did nothing.

During both an awake Neville & June being shot accurately alternatively. Meaning both adults allowed themselves to be shot, before Neville went downstairs. Although if Sheila had ran out of bullets there was not a reason for Neville to go downstairs. 


In any of these situations, would it be the natural reaction for the father/husband/grandfather of the house to go downstairs upon receiving the first four bullets ?

I thought scipio said that he was shot in the head upstairs?

[No-Bits]

I can't work out things like this. Never very good at maths.

Lol, obviously others may have different views, but personally, I'm more convinced that this is the order than anything else.

Regardless of the earlier posts in this thread, the order could work for Sheila or Jeremy. You obviously know my opinion on that, but it works either way.

[No-Bits]

There's a certain amount of over kill going on here as well, it wasn't just some sort of wild rampage, the killer made sure the victims were dead, using extra shots to make sure, even going back to June to make sure.

The killer under estimated the ability of the rifle to kill.

[Adam]

Jeremy would have shot Neville and June first. They represented most danger.

More time needed to be spent on Sheila. The twins were controllable if they woke. As it happened they did not wake.

There is no reason Sheila would wake. Thread already created. She was either lead or carried a few feet to the main bedroom. If she did wake, she retreated to the bedroom corner after seeing a man in the dark holding a rifle.

[scipio_usmc]

I thought scipio said that he was shot in the head upstairs?

Only if you count the lip and jaw as the head because I have consistently asserted he was shot in the arm, lip, jaw and the graze wound upstairs while the 4 head wounds were suffered in the kitchen.

4 shots her received were to his left side.  That means he had his left profile to the killer. That is the only way for the killer to land such shots, the killer was facing Nevill's left side. So both men were in the same exact position when these shots were fired.  Nevill with his left profile facing the killer for all 4.  It stands to reason all these left shots were fired in succession.  There were 4 shell casings in the bedroom from these shots and also the bullet that grazed Nevill was found in the bedroom.  The graze bullet was one of the left facing shots and it stands to reason so were the other 3 shots that were fired in the bedroom.

These shots would not have been able to have been delivered in the position Nevill was found when dead but the 4 shots to his head could have been delivered easily with him slumped over like that.  More evidence that these shots were the 4 delivered downstairs is they were tightly grouped and believed to have been delivered in quick succession.  Most significant though, Vanezis said that if any of them had been delivered outside the kitchen then Nevill would not have been able to reach the kitchen so they had to have been delivered in the kitchen.

So for all the above reasons it is clear that the 4 shots to Nevill's left profile were delivered in the bedroom while the 4 shots to his head were delivered in the kitchen after he had been knocked unconscious.

His gunshot wounds at the time of the beating were: 1) graze wounds (not serious), 2) broken left arm (which affected how effectively he could fight back), 3) lip shot off 4) jaw shattered and voicebox severed

So he was able to reach the kitchen and to struggle with his killer but his left arm had limited use so that gave the killer the upper hand.

[Adam]

If it was Sheila, surely Neville was shot, beaten and killed first.

Neville wouldn't stand back and let Sheila shoot the others. Or maybe he was phoning Jeremy while Sheila was emptying the rifle upstairs. That would mean a returning Neville could restrain Sheila as she was out of bullets. That did not happen.

So it is more likely an awake June & Neville allowed Sheila to fire off 10/11 bullets in the main bedroom. Hitting the target with surprising accuracy. Neville running downstairs and abandoning June while she was being murdered. Although Sheila was about to run out of bullets.

[scipio_usmc]

It is now beyond doubt that the order of shots is as follows:

The first 10 shots were in the master bedroom, 4 shots to Nevill and 6 shots to June.

The rifle was reloaded in the kitchen and four shots were to Nevills head in the kitchen.

The partially full magazine was reloaded, with a bullet already in the breach, the rifle now contained 11 bullets.

These 11 bullets were distributed as follows: 8 to the twins, 1 more to June and 2 to Sheila.
______________________________

Given the above, what impact does that have on who may be responsible?

(Just humour me if you disagree with the order  :D ).

While that is a possibility it requires the kitchen reload to have been more than 4 bullets and the decision of the killer to stop at 4 bullets instead of emptying the magazine in Nevill's head.

I see it as more likely that the killer loaded 4 bullets and fired till the gun was empty. 

Also, June already would have been dead when the killer went upstairs.  Firing a final shot into her after she was dead already makes little sense unless you want to be sure so that there is no way she can rat you out.  That actually is something more likely to be done by Jeremy than a raging Sheila who would simply think June was dead (which she would have been) and not bother. The rationa decision maybe she is not dead and will be saved by doctors and be able to finger me though she looks dead is not something a raging Sheila is going to think about.  So if June was shot a seventh time after the kitchen instea do fthe initial volley that is a strong indication it was Jeremy not Sheila.

I still think it likely that Jeremy would have made sure to have 11 shots in the gun before the shooting started and fired all 11 in the initial burst thus putting the bullet between June's eyes before the kitchen episode. Naturally Sheila would not have known how to load 11 rounds let alone bother to have done so  thus if that did happen it could not have been Sheila.

But it could not have been Sheila anyway because there is no way she would not have gotten victim blood and GSR on her clothing and could not have killed herself.   

[Adam]

There is no reason why Sheila would wake if it was Jeremy -

Her bedroom door may have been shut = No noise. 

A silencer was used = No noise. 

The twins did not wake = No noise. 

June was shot & died in/by the bed = No noise. 

Neville & Jeremy went downstairs = Minimal short term noise. 

There was a brief but brutal fight = Noise in another part of WHF. 

This whole process may have taken less than five minutes. Most of which was noise free = Not enough long term loudness to wake Sheila. Who may have been in a deep sleep as people are at 2.00am. And under sedation according to the 2002 appeal. 

[Adam]

Neville and June being shot in their bedroom by Sheila can mean these things -

They were both awake, Sheila was holding the gun in a rage. Neither Neville or June attempted to hi jack the gun. Sheila then opened fire, hitting the target 11 times. Neville ran away downstairs as the gun was being emptied.

Sheila opened fire on June. Neville returned upstairs into the main bedroom. Sheila fired her remaining four bullets into Neville as he retreated downstairs.

Sheila was firing 8 bullets into the twins. Neville saw her doing this & Sheila turned her attentions to him. Neville retreated into his bedroom and was shot 4 times. June was sleeping,  or awake but too scared to do anything.

[scipio_usmc]

Again if the children were shot last wouldn't there have been the danger of then waking up? Scipio said that if that was so then  Nevill and June would have woken up. Well maybe that is exactly what happened, since they were both found out of their bed? The children on the other hand were apparently sleeping soundly and undisturbed.

You ignore that June was shot in bed and did not make it far from the bed before being killed.

If he shot the twins first he would have only had 2-3 shots remaining when the parents got up and encountered him.  Had that happened they would not have been shot in their bedroom and June certainly not shot in bed. Then encountering his with only 2-3 bullet sint he gun would have been a big problem and woudl likely have resulte din him being subdued and the police called.

Kids usually sleep through more than adults and kids don't have guns let alone the physical strength an adult does so it makes far more sense to risk the kids waking up than the adults.

Either way he had to risk Sheila waking up but knew from taking her home that she was tiring fast and probably would not have been an issue.  His biggest problem with her might have been waking her up and getting her out of bed.  But if he was worried about her then even more you want the adults out of the way. Why not shoot 5 into each in the meantime if shooting them first? 

But let's go with your specualtion (excluding the unsupportable claim the parents woke up and confronted him outside their bedroom because they were shot in their bedroom and June still in bed when it started):

1) Fires 8 rounds at the kids, 1 bullet left in the chamber, 1 in the magazine
2) reloads another 9 rounds in the magazine so gun has 11
3) goes to master bedroom and fires 11 rounds into the parents
4) after Nevill unconscious loads 6 rounds into the gun
5) fires 4 rounds into Nevill
6) used last 2 on Sheila

For this to work the parents can't have woken up and left their room or would have busted him which he was reloading but instead were surprised as he entered their bedroom with the gun.

Either way you slice it while the first shootings happened the other can't have immediately gotten out of bed and rushed out to encounter the killer or things would have went down significantly different than they did.   

It would be too stupid and foolish to not kill the parents first.  I can't see him not viewing them as the greatest threat.

In the meantime how can the phonecall to Jeremy fit in ever?

The phonecall allegedly was made before any shooting occurred.   

The only way the phone would be left off the hook would be if Sheila forced the phone to be off the hook, Nevill would not want to do that on purpose so Sheila would have to have bene there with him.

Why would she march him upstairs to his bedroom instead of killing him there in the kitchen?  She was supposedly out of control and out of her mind so marching him to his bedroom so she could kill him and June together doesn't work.

Goin to kill the boys after making him hang up the phone surely doesn't work because then Nevill could have jumped her as she ried to reload and she only would have had 2-3 bullets left. 

The only way the phone clal coudl seem plausible would be if Nevill had been shot in the kitchen right after that call which is what Jeremy hoped people would believe.  But if the shooting started int he kitchen the struggle never would have happened, the struggle happened because the gun was empty. The gun was empty because it was used upstairs first and indeed Nevill was shot upstairs before the kitchen.  All of this helps reveal the phone call to be complete fiction.

Trying to work the phone call in the mix fails no matter what you try to do when taking into account the 4 shooting episodes

-Nevill and June being shot in the bedroom

-Nevill shot in the kitchen

-twins shot in their beds

-Sheila shot in her room

potential 5th episode of June being shot some additional times
 
The phonecall had to precede all of these

The shooting in the master bedroom of June and Nevill had to precede the kitchen shooting

How do you get from Sheila being in the kitchen with Nevill making the phone remain off the hook and arrive at either:

A) Nevill going to his bedroom and June still remaining in bed while Sheila goes and shoots the boys in their room with 2 bullets left, goes downstairs and reloads and then goes into the master bedroom to shoot her parents.  Nevill would have simply stayed in his room with June still in bed while that was going on and wait for her to come for them next?

or

B) March Nevill to the master bedroom and shoot her parents, then the kitchen murder and finally kill the boys before killing herself.

I can't see either as happening least of all June staying in bed as Sheila is running around with a gun.

When the phonecall can't fit in that is a huge problem, the phonecall makes no sense anyway but especially in light of how the murders were carried out.

[Caroline]

There's a certain amount of over kill going on here as well, it wasn't just some sort of wild rampage, the killer made sure the victims were dead, using extra shots to make sure, even going back to June to make sure.

The killer under estimated the ability of the rifle to kill.

There is usually over kill when a family member is the killer.