Jeremy Bambers Injuries

[scipio_usmc]

I believe none of the shots were from that close. None apparently were contact shots. Vanesis was surprised to hear that there was blood on the inside of the silencer. He expected blood to be on the outside.

Amazing how you just make up anything you feel like as Mike does no wonder you both are best buds:



He was not surprised that Sheila's blood was found inside.  He determined her wounds were contact or near contact wounds.

Also concerning eleven cartridges in the magazine and one in the chamber? How is that possible.

  How did you get 12 rounds including 11 in the magazine and 1 in the chamber from this quote?

"The gun had 11 rounds so not just a full magazine but one in the chamber when the shooting in the master bedroom took place."

As plain as day it says 11 rounds total a full magazine and 1 in the chamber. That is indeed possible.

Also no one knows how many bullets were loaded in the gun at any given time. The only witness we have is Jeremy where he said that he loaded the magazine.
Again if there was one bullet in the chamber surely that answers your question on how did Sheila know how to chamber a bullet? Answer from your own comment. She didn't have to, because there was one already in the chamber? You said it remember and not me.

It is a safe bet that the killer fired all 11 shots into June and Nevill at the same time as opposed to having a lesser amount of bullets and returning later with more.  The more loadings that take place the less things make sense. 

The gun had to be empty when the struggle took place in the kitchen or the killer would have shot Nevill instead of beating him.  The killer had to knock him out to be able to reload and then deliver those 4 shots to his head.

Alternative scenarios:
A)10 shots fired in the bedroom, gun empty
B) 10 shots reloaded in the kitchen- 4 into Nevill, 6 shots remaining
C1) Go upstairs with 6 rounds in the gun, shoot June with 1 and Daniel with 5, gun empty
C2) reload fully and go upstairs with 10 bullets, shoot June with 1, Daniel with 5 and Nicholas with 3, 1 bullet still left in gun.
C3) load 11 rounds and go upstairs, shoot June with 1, Daniel with 5 and Nicholas with 3, 2 bullets still left in gun.
D1) load 2 more bullets to kill Sheila, instead of just 1 bullet load a spare
D2) even though have 1 round left to kill Sheila with stop to load an extra round before killing her
D3) 2 remaining bullets used to kill Sheila

So the only one that makes any sense is if 11 rounds had been loaded before the shooting ever began or if 11 rounds had been loaded before the final slaughter.  Shooting 1 twin and then reloading before shooting the other makes no sense.  Loading an extra bullet to kill Sheila with makes no sense.

At one point or another 11 bullets had been loaded in the gun.

Since either of the 2 shots to June's head would have killed her before the killer returned from the kitchen after the battle with Nevill it would have been pointless to then fire another shot into her dead body.  Moroever the most likely time to fill the gun to capacity (11 rounds) is before the shooting ever starts.  So the scenario I go by is the one most likely to have occurred based on the totality of the circumstances.

The gun had to be empty when the struggle took place in the kitchen or the killer would have shot Nevill instead of beating him.  The killer had to knock him out to be able to reload and then deliver those 4 shots to his head.

In his statements on 8/7/85 and 8/8/85 Jeremy stated he removed the bullet from the chamber:

While you make up things as you go along I have already considered the relevant issues in advance before coming to any conclusions. 





Could Jeremy have lied?  It is clear that he lied and that the entire fable about taking the gun out to shoot rabbits and leaving it out afterwards along with the bullets is a lie.  He removed the scope and loaded and hid the gun where he could gian easy access when he returned.  he didn't leave it out risking someone putting it away someplace where he would not find it.

[grahameb]

Amazing how you just make up anything you feel like as Mike does no wonder you both are best buds:



He was not surprised that Sheila's blood was found inside.  He determined her wounds were contact or near contact wounds.
  How did you get 12 rounds including 11 in the magazine and 1 in the chamber from this quote?

"The gun had 11 rounds so not just a full magazine but one in the chamber when the shooting in the master bedroom took place."

As plain as day it says 11 rounds total a full magazine and 1 in the chamber. That is indeed possible.

It is a safe bet that the killer fired all 11 shots into June and Nevill at the same time as opposed to having a lesser amount of bullets and returning later with more.  The more loadings that take place the less things make sense. 

The gun had to be empty when the struggle took place in the kitchen or the killer would have shot Nevill instead of beating him.  The killer had to knock him out to be able to reload and then deliver those 4 shots to his head.

Alternative scenarios:
A)10 shots fired in the bedroom, gun empty
B) 10 shots reloaded in the kitchen- 4 into Nevill, 6 shots remaining
C1) Go upstairs with 6 rounds in the gun, shoot June with 1 and Daniel with 5, gun empty
C2) reload fully and go upstairs with 10 bullets, shoot June with 1, Daniel with 5 and Nicholas with 3, 1 bullet still left in gun.
C3) load 11 rounds and go upstairs, shoot June with 1, Daniel with 5 and Nicholas with 3, 2 bullets still left in gun.
D1) load 2 more bullets to kill Sheila, instead of just 1 bullet load a spare
D2) even though have 1 round left to kill Sheila with stop to load an extra round before killing her
D3) 2 remaining bullets used to kill Sheila

So the only one that makes any sense is if 11 rounds had been loaded before the shooting ever began or if 11 rounds had been loaded before the final slaughter.  Shooting 1 twin and then reloading before shooting the other makes no sense.  Loading an extra bullet to kill Sheila with makes no sense.

At one point or another 11 bullets had been loaded in the gun.

Since either of the 2 shots to June's head would have killed her before the killer returned from the kitchen after the battle with Nevill it would have been pointless to then fire another shot into her dead body.  Moroever the most likely time to fill the gun to capacity (11 rounds) is before the shooting ever starts.  So the scenario I go by is the one most likely to have occurred based on the totality of the circumstances.

The gun had to be empty when the struggle took place in the kitchen or the killer would have shot Nevill instead of beating him.  The killer had to knock him out to be able to reload and then deliver those 4 shots to his head.

In his statements on 8/7/85 and 8/8/85 Jeremy stated he removed the bullet from the chamber:

While you make up things as you go along I have already considered the relevant issues in advance before coming to any conclusions. 





Could Jeremy have lied?  It is clear that he lied and that the entire fable about taking the gun out to shoot rabbits and leaving it out afterwards along with the bullets is a lie.  He removed the scope and loaded and hid the gun where he could gian easy access when he returned.  he didn't leave it out risking someone putting it away someplace where he would not find it.

Erm I don't know? You're the one who said it.

"The gun had 11 rounds so not just a full magazine but one in the chamber

[scipio_usmc]

Yes he did. I was just dismissing scipio's post as wrong. He was obviously ahem!..."misled" again.

Mislead about what? 

All you did was demonstrate you can't read because you thought I said there were 12 rounds inthe gun and worse your supposed arguments were nonsense as always.

Worse you made up that Vanezis was surprised that Sheila's blood coudl be inside because he did not think the wounds were so close.

Your choice of the word "dismssed" in the post above is the only accurate thing you have stated in weeks.  You dismiss arguments you don't refute them with evidence.  I refute arguments I don't simply dismiss them.

You seem to have no grasp of this case at all.  You Don't even know what Jeremy stated let alone Vanezis.

You operate form a very basic premise which you admitted yesterday, you refuse to believe that Jeremy could have done it and believe a crazy person had to have committed the murders and you will dismiss any and all evidence that proves you wrong.

That is not a rational argument or position but you get even more ludicrous than that by constantly telling us you are objective and unbiased and not a Jeremy supporter.

[grahameb]

Scipio please keep up lad. IF you had been reading my posts with your good eye then you would have seen that I also queried the rabbit story and said that the story didn't sit well with me, why didn't he use a shotgun? You didn't need to repeat all that for my benefit.
By the way Vanesis was referring to the barrel of the gun when he said in his opinion he would have expected to have found more blood on the outside of the weapon rather than inside. It was I who suggested that if the silencer was attached then the same would obviously have applied to that as well?
He also said that he was informed that it was a suicide and that he found nothing to contradict that.

ps: It appears that I was wrong about the contact shots? I was "misinformed" just like you were aoncerning the telephone engineer.

[grahameb]

Mislead about what? 

All you did was demonstrate you can't read because you thought I said there were 12 rounds inthe gun and worse your supposed arguments were nonsense as always.

Worse you made up that Vanezis was surprised that Sheila's blood coudl be inside because he did not think the wounds were so close.

Your choice of the word "dismssed" in the post above is the only accurate thing you have stated in weeks.  You dismiss arguments you don't refute them with evidence.  I refute arguments I don't simply dismiss them.

You seem to have no grasp of this case at all.  You Don't even know what Jeremy stated let alone Vanezis.

You operate form a very basic premise which you admitted yesterday, you refuse to believe that Jeremy could have done it and believe a crazy person had to have committed the murders and you will dismiss any and all evidence that proves you wrong.

That is not a rational argument or position but you get even more ludicrous than that by constantly telling us you are objective and unbiased and not a Jeremy supporter.

Short memory again have we scipio, concerning your "mistakes"? Hint: the telephone engineer who said that one call was made from WHF that morning? You were "misled" I think you said?

[grahameb]

Mislead about what? 

All you did was demonstrate you can't read because you thought I said there were 12 rounds inthe gun and worse your supposed arguments were nonsense as always.

Worse you made up that Vanezis was surprised that Sheila's blood coudl be inside because he did not think the wounds were so close.

Your choice of the word "dismssed" in the post above is the only accurate thing you have stated in weeks.  You dismiss arguments you don't refute them with evidence.  I refute arguments I don't simply dismiss them.

You seem to have no grasp of this case at all.  You Don't even know what Jeremy stated let alone Vanezis.

You operate form a very basic premise which you admitted yesterday, you refuse to believe that Jeremy could have done it and believe a crazy person had to have committed the murders and you will dismiss any and all evidence that proves you wrong.

That is not a rational argument or position but you get even more ludicrous than that by constantly telling us you are objective and unbiased and not a Jeremy supporter.

Now now no need to be rude sunny jim. Please control your crazy outbursts that you are prone to.

[scipio_usmc]

Erm I don't know? You're the one who said it.

"The gun had 11 rounds so not just a full magazine but one in the chamber"

Yes I did say that.  It says the gun had a full magazine and one in the chamber so 11 rounds total.  Even if one did not know a full magazine is 10 rounds one can calculate the number by deducting the round in the chamber from 11 to arrive at 10.

You wrote:

"Also concerning eleven cartridges in the magazine and one in the chamber? How is that possible."

Your comprehension skills or your math skills are atrocious. 

[grahameb]

Yes I did say that.  It says the gun had a full magazine and one in the chamber so 11 rounds total.  Even if one did not know a full magazine is 10 rounds one can calculate the number by deducting the round in the chamber from 11 to arrive at 10.

You wrote:

"Also concerning eleven cartridges in the magazine and one in the chamber? How is that possible."

Your comprehension skills or your math skills are atrocious.

Oh I see. It was the cockeyed way you said it. But you still said there was one in the chamber and if there was one in the chamber that cocks up your theory that Sheila didn't know how to chamber a bullet. Answer: If there was already one in the chamber then she didn't need to.
But of course there was no bullet in the chamber was there? Because Jeremy said he unloaded the gun, took off the magazine and made the gun safe.
Now it is your job to prove he wasn't lying.
But of course having said all that he could be lying in that he perhaps didn't leave a gun there at all? But there really is no proof either way? It's all very well counting bullets. But for all we know it may all have happened in an entirely different way altogether?

[scipio_usmc]

Scipio please keep up lad. IF you had been reading my posts with your good eye then you would have seen that I also queried the rabbit story and said that the story didn't sit well with me, why didn't he use a shotgun? You didn't need to repeat all that for my benefit.
By the way Vanesis was referring to the barrel of the gun when he said in his opinion he would have expected to have found more blood on the outside of the weapon rather than inside. It was I who suggested that if the silencer was attached then the same would obviously have applied to that as well?
He also said that he was informed that it was a suicide and that he found nothing to contradict that.

ps: It appears that I was wrong about the contact shots? I was "misinformed" just like you were aoncerning the telephone engineer.

A scoped 22 (unless you are not a skilled shot) is superior to a shotgun because you can fire from further away.  A shotgun is better for the obvious reaosn that the shot spreads and even if the rabbit starts to move you have a chance of hitting.

Either way that is a matter of choice moreso than anything else.  Nevill had been using shotguns a long time and he thus most likely woudl prefer shotguns to the new rifle which Jeremy insisted had to be a semi-auto and to have a magazine that held a good number of rounds.

What is suspect is that he was not know to ever shoot rabbits and was against such.  That makes it suspicious that he suddenly decided to do such.  For the weapon to be found with the moderator and scope removed makes little sense and is suspicious.  Claiming in September that he and Nevill used this gun multiple times each weekly and that the scope and moderator kept being removed made little sense especially in light of how little wear the gun had when Anthony used it.  You scratch the area where the scope screws on if you keep taking it on and off and you have to rezero the rifle each time.  There is simply no reaosn to remove them except close quarter shooting like the murders.

Those are the reasons you should be suspicious.

Being suspicious about simply a judgment call doesn't cut it and even if you are saying that since the gun had no scope he would have been better off with the shotgun which is true but still a judgment call.  If you have evidence he did use a shotgun when shooting animals that would be different because habit evidence is vlaid and powerful but in this case the habit evidence suggests he would not have been shooting rabbits at all let alone at that hour of night that he managed to "hear" from the kitchen.

[grahameb]

A scoped 22 (unless you are not a skilled shot) is superior to a shotgun because you can fire from further away.  A shotgun is better for the obvious reaosn that the shot spreads and even if the rabbit starts to move you have a chance of hitting.

Either way that is a matter of choice moreso than anything else.  Nevill had been using shotguns a long time and he thus most likely woudl prefer shotguns to the new rifle which Jeremy insisted had to be a semi-auto and to have a magazine that held a good number of rounds.

What is suspect is that he was not know to ever shoot rabbits and was against such.  That makes it suspicious that he suddenly decided to do such.  For the weapon to be found with the moderator and scope removed makes little sense and is suspicious.  Claiming in September that he and Nevill used this gun multiple times each weekly and that the scope and moderator kept being removed made little sense especially in light of how little wear the gun had when Anthony used it.  You scratch the area where the scope screws on if you keep taking it on and off and you have to rezero the rifle each time.  There is simply no reaosn to remove them except close quarter shooting like the murders.

Those are the reasons you should be suspicious.

Being suspicious about simply a judgment call doesn't cut it and even if you are saying that since the gun had no scope he would have been better off with the shotgun which is true but still a judgment call.  If you have evidence he did use a shotgun when shooting animals that would be different because habit evidence is vlaid and powerful but in this case the habit evidence suggests he would not have been shooting rabbits at all let alone at that hour of night that he managed to "hear" from the kitchen.

I must admit the story doesn't ring true to me? I can't see the point if shooting the rabbit in the evening either? I shouldn't think there was much damage they could do around the house anyway?

[scipio_usmc]

Oh I see. It was the cockeyed way you said it. But you still said there was one in the chamber and if there was one in the chamber that cocks up your theory that Sheila didn't know how to chamber a bullet. Answer: If there was already one in the chamber then she didn't need to.
But of course there was no bullet in the chamber was there? Because Jeremy said he unloaded the gun, took off the magazine and made the gun safe.
Now it is your job to prove he wasn't lying.
But of course having said all that he could be lying in that he perhaps didn't leave a gun there at all? But there really is no proof either way? It's all very well counting bullets. But for all we know it may all have happened in an entirely different way altogether?

1) There was no gun at all sitting in the kitchen for Sheila to find Jeremy clearly made that claim up and staged the 30 rounds to support it.  Those 30 rounds are 5 too many thus proving they were staged.  For them not to be staged requires the killer to have used 20 rounds from that pile and then gone to the closet to get 5 more which makes no sense.  Sheila also would have to have gone to the closet to get the moderator and attach it, again making little sense if she just grabbed a weapon of opportunity in a rage.

2) If we pretend Jeremy's claims are true and that he left the gun out with no bullets in it and 10 in the magazine then that fails to explain how 11 could have been in the gun by simply loading the magazine.

If we pretend he was wrong and he left one in the chamber and simply removed the magazine that means 9 in the magazine and 1 in the chamber, still only 10 rounds total.

3) Each time a new magazine is loaded the first round from that magazine must be manually chambered.  So even if we pretend Jeremy did leave the gun out as claimed but was wrong and did leave a round in the chamber that would only enable Sheila to fire the initial 10 round batch off.  To fire additional magazines she still would have to know she needed to chamber a round and how.

4) A) the shots in the boys were closely grouped and it was determined they were fired in succession not a round in each and then the killer returned later to add more.  So 5 were dumped in Daniel in succession and 3 in Nicholas in succession. It is not reasonable to believe the killer would kill 1 and then leave, reload and return to kill the other. The killer would have made sure to have had enough rounds to kill both in rapid succession so the other would not have time to wake up and run away. So the killer had at least 8 rounds in the gun in the twins' room and either ran out of bullets after killing both or had 1-3 bullets remaining. So after killing them there were 0-3 bullets remaining.

B) the shots into Sheila were fired seconds apart so the gun had at least 2 bullets in it when she was shot.  If she killed herself the gun had only 2 when she was shot and then was empty.  If she was not the killer then in theory the gun could have had up to 11 bullets, 2 used on her and then anywhere from 0 to 9 remaining to be used on others but if she was the last victim then it had zero left.

C) Nevill and June were shot together in the bedroom.  Nevill was shot 4 times and June up to 7 times in this sitting.  June was shot at minimum enough times that she was incapacitated and could not make it out of the room.  Nevill was not incapacitated by those 4 shots and he managed to reach the kitchen. The gun was empty for Nevill to make it to the kitchen and for the struggle to occur.  Had the gun not been empty upon the killer leaving the bedroom then the killer would have shot Nevill instead of beating him unconscious in order to shoot him.  He was beaten unconscious and the gun was then reloaded with enough rounds to fire 4 into his head killing him.

D) The gun when found was empty, 25 bullets had been loaded into the gun and all 25 fired.

So those are the things we have to work with in assessing the order of the shots and trying to take into account the reloading issues and maximum capacity of the weapon.

I. Which bedroom did the shootings start in?

It is not conceivable that Jeremy would march Sheila into the bedroom and shoot her first with his parents looking on nor is it possible she could have shot herself at the outset.  So the shootings would have to have either started by shooting the parents or the twins.

Why would Jeremy shoot the twins first and risk his parents waking up?  His parents would be the greatest threat so he would shoot them first. If Sheila were raging she would likely also shoot her parents first but if either instead shot the twins first then what?  Well depending on whether the gun had 11 or 10 rounds that would mean only 2 or 3 shots left to use on the parents before needing to reload.  If the killer fired only 2-3 shots at the parents then the killer would not have been able to fire 4 rounds at Nevill before he could leave the bedroom let alone enought to shoot him 4 times and also enough to incapactiate June. 

So that tells us the parents were definitely the ones shot first.

II.  How did the first shooting go down?

The killer would have had either 10 or 11 rounds upon entering the master bedroom.  The gun was empty when the shooting stopped.  11 rounds were fired into Nevill and June.  That is strong evidence the gun had 11 rounds not 10.  If it had 10 that means the killer only fired 6 into June.  2 different bullets would have rapidly killed June and if she was shot 6 times then 1 of those bullets was fired into her before the struggle in the kitchen.

III. Kitchen

The gun was empty in the kitchen at first hence the struggle.  Upon knocking out Nevill the killer was able to load the gun with at least 4 rounds and fired them killing him.  If the killer only loaded 4 roudns the killer definitely had to reload again.  If the killer loaded more than 4 rounds the killer could choose to either reload the magazine in full, to take extra time to load an 11th round or to not reload at all and just go upstairs to kill the twins and Sheial with the rounds remaining after having killed Nevill which means 6 rounds max (or 7 if the killer actually bothered to load 11 rounds before killing Nevill though the killer would have been in a rush to kill him before he could wake up so highly unlikely)

IV. Going back upstairs after the kitchen murder

The most likely thing would be for the killer to reload a full magazine not go upstairs with only 6 or 7 rounds to kill 3-4 people. The killer needed to make sure June was dead, kill the twins and either murder Sheila or commit suicide. So the killer would want a full magazine not want to go up there with a partially loaded magazine.

If 11 rounds were in the gun at the outset then 10 subsequent shots were fired upstairs: 5 into Daniel, 3 into Nicholas and 2 into Sheila

Going upstairs with a full 10 round magazine would be sufficient to result in 10 shots being fired and the gun being empty.

Alternatively if 10 rounds were in the gun at the outset then 11 subsequent shots were fired upstairs: 1 into June, 5 into Daniel, 3 into Nicholas and 2 into Sheila

Going upstairs with a full 10 round magazine and one in the chamber (gun loaded ot capacity of 11 rounds total) would be sufficient to result in 11 shots being fired and the gun being empty.

Why would the killer shoot June a 7th time though if they walked in the room and found her dead as she would surely be at that point?  It makes little sense so that cations against 11 shots being fired in the last batch but rather being firsed in the first batch. Also, one is much mor eliekly to load the gun to capacity the first time and from that point forward load the magazine to capacity not both to load an extra 11th round.  The time it takes for the 11th round is not worth it when actively shooting you do it beforehand when time is not of the essence.  Someone who took the effort in the kitchen to load 11 surely would also have done so before the outset.  But that would mean there would still have been a bullet left in the gun so clearly that didn't happen either. So much more likely for a whole host of reasons is 11 loaded at the outset only.

Going upstairs with 6 or 7 rounds does not add up.  Either 10 or 11 rounds were fired.  If 1 were fired into June to finish her (which still makes no sense since she was already dead) that leaves 5 or 6 rounds left on the boys.  Even going into the boys room with 7 and shooting June after them would not add up because 8 were fired at the boys.  Here are all the possiiblities:

1) If 11 bullets were fired after the kitchen murder
A) If there were 6 bullets in the gun when going upstairs
i) 1 in June, 5 in Nicholas then have to reload 5 more rounds to kill Nicholas and Sheila 
ii) 1 in June, 3 in Nicholas, 2 in Sheila then reload 5 more rounds to kill Daniel 
iii) 1 in June, 5 left in the gun but load another 5 to kill Nicholas, Daniel and Sheila

B) If there were 7 bullets in the gun when going upstairs
i) 1 in June, 5 in Nicholas, 1 round still in gun but load 4 more rounds to kill Nicholas and Sheila 
ii) 1 in June, 3 in Nicholas, 2 in Sheila, 1 round still in gun but load 4 more rounds to kill Daniel
iii) 1 in June, 5 left in the gun but load another 5 to kill Nicholas, Daniel and Sheila

2) If 10 bullets were fired after the kitchen murder 
A) If there were 6 bullets in the gun when going upstairs
i) 5 in Nicholas, 1 bullet still in the gun but load 4 more rounds to kill Nicholas and Sheila 
ii) 3 in Nicholas, 2 in Sheila, 1 round still in gun but load 4 more rounds to kill Daniel

B) If there were 7 bullets in the gun when going upstairs
i) 5 in Nicholas, 2 still left in gun but load 3 more rounds to kill Nicholas and Sheila 
ii) 5 in Nicholas, 2 in Sheila then reload 3 more rounds to kill Daniel
iii) 3 in Nicholas, 2 in Sheila, 2 bullets still left in gun but load 3 more rounds to kill Daniel

It is rather obvious how it is wanting to say the killer had rounds still in the gun but went to get more bullets instead of emptying the gun or that the killer shot the twins in different batches reloading in between shooting 1 and then the other.  After the kitchen episode the killer would have gone upstairs with a full magazine.  If the killer went upstairs with a full magazine and used them all that tells us 10 shots were fired after the kitchen so 11 were fired before the kitchen.

That adds up to the gun having 11 at the outset.

If you want to try coming up with different suggestions be my guest to try explaining such but nothing else adds up.

[scipio_usmc]

Short memory again have we scipio, concerning your "mistakes"? Hint: the telephone engineer who said that one call was made from WHF that morning? You were "misled" I think you said?

What part of "mislead about what" confused you?

What coudl I have been mislead about?  My posts were accurate.

[scipio_usmc]

I must admit the story doesn't ring true to me? I can't see the point if shooting the rabbit in the evening either? I shouldn't think there was much damage they could do around the house anyway?

If one is a sadist known to jump at the chance to shoot any rabbit found anywhere or alternatively absolutely paranoid about rabbits and thus known to shoot any rabbit found anywhere then in that case it would sound more credible.

[guest154]

I must admit the story doesn't ring true to me? I can't see the point if shooting the rabbit in the evening either? I shouldn't think there was much damage they could do around the house anyway?

I agree. Even when I believed Bamber likely innocent the story of the loaded gun and the rabbits never felt true to me - it felt concocted and too perfect.

[grahameb]

What part of "mislead about what" confused you?

What coudl I have been mislead about?  My posts were accurate.

Well I'm only using your exact words mate. It was you who said that you hadn't lied about the engineer saying that there was one phone call made from WHF that morning. Caroline said that it was not possible for an engineer to tell if there was a call or not that morning and you said you were "misled" or maybe misinformed about it. Did you want me to try and turn the post up for you?