Was there still enough evidence without the silencer ?

[grahameb]

What animals let you walk up and hold the gun directly to their skin?  People shooting vermin or even hunting are unlikely to deal with drawback in any significant way.

Those that are wounded. I trow that you have not been hunting before?

[grahameb]

A dropper would not simulate the blood found.  The blood was sprayed so that tiny droplets landed on the first 8 baffles and more substantial drops also landed on the first 5 or so.

I don't recall anything that was recorded about the blood being sprayed into the silencer? I would be grateful if you could show me where they actually referred to this.

[grahameb]

If you winged them then they run away.  If they are immobilized but still breathing and you want to kill them you don't need to put the gun up against them in the meantime and not many people choose to do so.

In the meantime such doesn't inform one of the need or explain how to use a tool to spray blood inside in a manner to mimick drawback as opposed to jsut using a dropper liek any ordinary person woudl do.  But again a dropper would not account for the blood distribution found.

Then may I suggest that you do not know much about hunting animals? Otherwise you would know that that is a false statement.

[grahameb]

As usual Grahame is clueless. A substantial amount of blood was removed from the suppressor. The lab tested a flake of blood AS WELL as blood taken from the first several baffles.  In addition the defense found microscopic blood on the first 8 baffles. Both the flake as well as the blood on the baffles was exclusive to Sheila's.

"In dealing with this evidence, the defence were limited by the evidence available from their own expert. They called no such evidence at trial but the material that they had obtained pre-trial has been disclosed in the course of this appeal. The defence had instructed Dr Patrick Lincoln, whose expertise in such matters was well known. On 29 April 1986, he visited the forensic science laboratory and examined the relevant material. He carried out tests on all seventeen baffles. The first eight plates all gave weak or very weak positive reactions for blood. There was no blood clearly visible to the naked eye...The other nine plates "did not produce any evidence for the presence of blood".

No questions were asked at trial of Mr Hayward to establish what part of the blood he had tested. The position was, however, known to the defence through their own expert Dr Lincoln. Dr Lincoln had seen the evidential material upon which the group testing results were based and agreed with the conclusions. He recorded that evidence in the course of his report of 19 September 1986. He said that Mr Hayward had "found a flake of blood trapped under the first or second baffle plate" and that it was this flake that was tested and produced the groupings A, EAP BA, AK1, Hp2.1

Dr Lincoln further recorded: "Mr Hayward states that he could detect visible staining on the "upper baffle plates" and that he swabbed these plates so that the blood was taken onto cotton material which could subsequently be used in grouping tests. On this material Mr Hayward successfully determined the ABO and EAP groups and showed the blood to be groups A, EAP BA."

He agreed with Mr Hayward's conclusion that the combination of blood groups revealed in his testing of the inside of the moderator could have come solely from Sheila Caffell but did not come from any one of the other individuals."

That is from the 2002 Appeal.

The blood they were looking at was believed to be back spatter specifically drawback which is back spatter theat goes into the weapon when the weapon is fired less than 2mm from the flesh. 

They found a considerable amount of blood several inches into the suppressor. The blood typed the flake as well as blood obtained from the upper baffles.  There was also microscopic drops that remained to be found by the defense expert even though the prosecution had removed all visible blood.

So no proof to substantiate your claim of how the blood was distributed then? No mention of it beimng sprayed into the silencer by backspatter? In any case it can be duplicated by a simple spray device such as a perfume spray bottle. Listen master scipio, anything can be faked and scientists are usually very easy to fool as Uri Geller demonstrated very well.

[maggie]

Of course they knew about it. They are all gun experts. Peter Eaton is a gun dealer They were all farmers and well acquainted with firearms. Sciptomaloo knew about it, why shouldn't they? Too much was made of this and I shouldn't have thought the lab would have been bothered with how the blood got in there anyway. They were more concerned with the grouping.
The silencer was a fake. Seems very dodgy to me the first time the family goes to the cupboard and hey presto "This MUST be the silencer". I would still like to know what Ann Eaton's brother meant when he said to her, "I've got something up my sleave".
Since every one of the family knew ways to getting into the house, just as Bamber himself did, then the house was not secure the night before, anyone could have got in and planted the silencer in the cupboard. I think it was a big red herring right from the start. And the family made far too much fuss about it to the police for it to have been genuine.

It is very interesting to me that the guilters loudly proclaim how Jeremy knew how to get into WHF via the windows but never, ever accept that others within the family and maybe outside the family themselves used or knew of this facility.  Therefore  there was nothing to stop anyone entering the farmhouse after, the murders while it lay empty and very possibly the reason for the alarm, panic button to be fitted. 
The only thing which points to Jeremy as being the murderer is the phone call, without that phone call  it could have been anyone.  How stupid was Jeremy to actually, effectively put his hand up and shout hey it was me, I did it!!!!!

[Caroline]

It is very interesting to me that the guilters loudly proclaim how Jeremy knew how to get into WHF via the windows but never, ever accept that others within the family and maybe outside the family themselves used or knew of this facility.  Therefore  there was nothing to stop anyone entering the farmhouse after, the murders while it lay empty and very possibly the reason for the alarm, panic button to be fitted. 
The only thing which points to Jeremy as being the murderer is the phone call, without that phone call  it could have been anyone.  How stupid was Jeremy to actually, effectively put his hand up and shout hey it was me, I did it!!!!!

Yes, but if he is guilty, I doubt that he considered not being believed. The phone call puts him somewhere else when Neville (in effect) was alive. Of course the call can't be proven either way and I have seen logs concerning the call which have been faked - you have to ask why?

[maggie]

Yes, but if he is guilty, I doubt that he considered not being believed. The phone call puts him somewhere else when Neville (in effect) was alive. Of course the call can't be proven either way and I have seen logs concerning the call which have been faked - you have to ask why?

I do agree Caroline, that is a question and I can see how he may have thought it was clever to fake the phone call but if he did he didn't look very far as he was effectively saying .... if Sheila didn't do it well I did!!!
On the other hand as you say those logs didn't correspond, they were definitely faked ........  why?? 

[lookout]

 I don't think anything was faked as such,it was sheer incompetence on the part of EP from beginning to end,and a case of too many cooks,all jotting down their individual logs/notes which at the end of the day didn't tally.
None of the officers were prepared for what they found inside the farmhouse and so nothing was carried out as systematically as it should have been.

[Caroline]

I don't think anything was faked as such,it was sheer incompetence on the part of EP from beginning to end,and a case of too many cooks,all jotting down their individual logs/notes which at the end of the day didn't tally.
None of the officers were prepared for what they found inside the farmhouse and so nothing was carried out as systematically as it should have been.

When something is supposed to be a copy of something else but contains a spelling mistake on one, which isn't on the other - and there are several versions; I'd say that was a fake or someone trying to cover something up.

[jon]

When something is supposed to be a copy of something else but contains a spelling mistake on one, which isn't on the other - and there are several versions; I'd say that was a fake or someone trying to cover something up.

Can you post these version's , you mention above please ?

[lookout]

When something is supposed to be a copy of something else but contains a spelling mistake on one, which isn't on the other - and there are several versions; I'd say that was a fake or someone trying to cover something up.

Hi Caroline,,my own view is that it's going on for 30 years and IF it had been a fake,,there'd have been thousands of people up in arms and not just a handful on one or two forums thrashing it out.
Police and mistakes are,and have come to the fore of late,so why not in this case ?

Neither is it a cover-up. The police have clearly made mistakes but nobody is prepared to rectify them for obvious reasons. The same things happen in hospitals. The ones who make mistakes/slip-ups will NEVER admit to doing it,though how they can live their lives knowing that they've either caused someones' death,or in Jeremys' case,incarceration,I don't know,but they do,and like SJ,go their graves with that mistake. Which is going to happen here.

[grahameb]

It is very interesting to me that the guilters loudly proclaim how Jeremy knew how to get into WHF via the windows but never, ever accept that others within the family and maybe outside the family themselves used or knew of this facility.  Therefore  there was nothing to stop anyone entering the farmhouse after, the murders while it lay empty and very possibly the reason for the alarm, panic button to be fitted. 
The only thing which points to Jeremy as being the murderer is the phone call, without that phone call  it could have been anyone.  How stupid was Jeremy to actually, effectively put his hand up and shout hey it was me, I did it!!!!!

Well there was absolutely no reason for him to tell about a phone call. If it was to implicate Sheila all he had to do was...erm....nothing. No one would have suspected him. Because of this reason I suspect that he acted just as an innocent man would act. A guilty man by definition would just keep quiet.

[Adam]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5440.0.html

[Jan]

Those that are wounded. I trow that you have not been hunting before?

 

[Adam]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5405.0.html

Jeremy's best option was to ring the police. Several threads already created.