Author Topic: The murder of 14 year-old schoolgirl Jodi Jones near Edinburgh on 30 June 2003  (Read 1056133 times)

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Offline Jan

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I agree that although it must be frustrating time wise , if you get definitive answers then the wait would be worthwhile.

I will try and get my head round these differences in Scotland , but to interview someone of 14 without proper legal representation and withhold what might be crucial evidence  seems archaic to me - and definitely against human rights . We are supposed to be a civilised country aren't we?

I am still struck with the method of  trial by personality when the factual evidence is not there . there may be some possible witness  evidence in this case ( but that does not look that reliable to me)  that may have been used in this case , but the main thing was to try and portray him as an evil monster to justify his conviction. The same as JB and also Amanda Knox ( not commenting on her guilt or innocence in this comment)  and also Sion Jenkins.

The fact is that someone may not be a nice person , they may have really bad personality  flaws or in fact not be "morally socially acceptable"  but that does not make them a murderer.


That surely is where "beyond reasonable doubt" comes in.

Did Lukes friends stick with him through all of this?


Offline nugnug

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i find that character destruction. is only used when they have no real evidence.

Lithium

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Jansus, the police have already been condemned for their handling of Luke, but again I would ask you to keep in mind that it was not the police who found him guilty. He had his day in court with more than capable legal representation awarded to him. This is where Sandra's SCCRC submission fails also, focusing on what the police done wrong (and other 'suspects', including Jodi's own brother), rather than any evidence of any kind of unfair trial taking place.

Quote from: Sandra
The family search trio's account of their movements that evening, and their claimed reasons for going straight to the path to look for Jodi do not stand up to scrutiny - according to phone logs, etc, when compared to statements from the search trio and other members of Jodi's family, the search trio arrived at the start of the path before they actually set out to search, and, by their own admissions, they headed for an area they would not have expected Jodi to be that evening, having been told explicitly that she was expected to be in the opposite direction entirely, and an area which they tried to claim jodi was not allowed to use, and would not have used alone. (At the time they made these claims, they were of the opinion that Jodi had not been with Luke that night, so they had no reason to believe that, had she been on the path with someone, that someone was Luke Mitchell.

There are so many elements of "evidence" which were never used by the defence

Care to explain what exactly this paragraph is "evidence" of in your opinion?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 04:13:PM by Dr. Lithium »

Offline nugnug

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none of the other suspects have been cleared of anything you cant be cleared of something if you were never investigated in the first place.

Offline Jan

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Appreciate your comments . But there are a lot of people who have "had their day in court" that have later been found innocent. I think sometimes the court system is a battle of egos and personal ambition. after all their job is to win , whether of not they believe the person they represent client is guilty.

But we do still have one of the best justice systems in the world (IMO)  but there are always some that will fall through the net.




Offline tyler

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What evidence convinces Jodi's family of Luke's guilt? What was suggested that the motive was for Jodi's murder? Personally, I believe that there were two perps and I also believe that advances in forensic science will eventually clear Luke.

Offline sandra L

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Jansus, the police have already been condemned for their handling of Luke, but again I would ask you to keep in mind that it was not the police who found him guilty. He had his day in court with more than capable legal representation awarded to him. This is where Sandra's SCCRC submission fails also, focusing on what the police done wrong (and other 'suspects', including Jodi's own brother), rather than any evidence of any kind of unfair trial taking place.

Sorry, Lithium, nice try, but the contents of the submission to the SCCRC have never been publicly released, so you can't legitimately make this claim. Also, as we have seen in so many MoJ cases in the past, it is because the police handled the case so poorly in the first place that the evidence before the jury was so tainted - the juries, of course, did not know that, and convicted in good faith that the information before them was a fair and accurate representation of the facts of the case and not - as was later proven in so many cases - the result of botched, maniplulated and fabricated police manoeverings.

Quote
Care to explain what exactly this paragraph is "evidence" of in your opinion?

This question was asked with reference to a paragraph I wrote about the search trio members of Jodi's family, whose accounts of their movements that evening clearly and demonstrably were incorrect, when compared with other, tangible factors (e.g. telephone logs, knowledge of undisclosed information, and so on).  The point I was making was that the police could have (some would say should have) been far more rigorous in their investigation of these inconsistencies and anomalies, if for no other reason than to avoid the inevitable consequence of people like me coming along and asking for feasible, reliable explanations - without them, there is, whether people like it or not, reasonable doubt regarding the safety of the conviction.

If the search trio could not possibly have left at the time they say they did, if their reasons for going to the very place where Jodi's body lay make no sense whatsoever (especially when, at that point, no-one except the murderer knew (a) that Jodi was dead and (b) where her body was), if their various explanations do not properly tie up with other, verified evidence, and if some of them changed their evidence in order to provide alibis for others who would not otherwise have had alibis, then I believe all of that should have been questioned, and questioned, and questioned, until reasonable answers were obtained. It is evidence of the fact - and it is a fact - that the investigation into the murder of Jodi Jones was flawed, biased, unprofessional and shoddy.

I am not accusing anyone of anything - no, actually, that is not correct. I am making a couple of accusations - firstly, the investigating officers did not do their jobs properly, and secondly, the defence did not make proper use of that fact at trial, in robustly cross-examining those whose evidence was inconsistent and inaccurate.

Jansus, you make a good point about trial by personality- Luke's trial started 17 months after the murder - the publicity throughout (except a brief period when Luke "could not be named for legal reasons") was relentless and hugely prejudicial. Then the trial was held locally -it's difficult to see how jurors could not have been infuenced by the "monster" portrayal.

It was made very, very difficult for Luke's friends to stand by him - we have accounts of the most horrendous intimidation of very vulnerable young people, including accounts of parents being told within the first week that LuKe would be arrested "within the week" and that they should keep their children away from Luke because he was "dangerous." Others reported being asked what they thought would happen to their kids if they were seen to be supportive of that "evil little b*****d" - you can imagine, in such a small area, the impact of such intimidation tactics.

However, there were a few notable exceptions, parents and kids, who remained loyal to Luke throughout, and I know he is eternally grateful to them. Others have since come back recently - as adults now, they realise the extent to which they were manipulated, and want to tell the truth of their experiences back in 2003.

Offline sandra L

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Apologies, Tyler, cross posted!

According to Jodi's mother and brother, the police have absolutely convinced them that "strands" of Luke's DNA were "all over her." According to the brother, they "weren't allowed" to link all the partial profiles together to make one full profile (that would match Luke), but they "knew" that all the partials were definitely from Luke's profile.

I find that desperately sad - I offered to sit down with both Jodi's mother and brother and show them the DNA results, and explain to them why what they claimed the police had told them was incorrect. (For example, male partial profiles containing markers which are not in Luke's profile cannot possibly be parts of his full profile - that's just one example of very many.)

Both refused to meet with me, claiming I was only presenting selected "bits" of information, even though my offer had been to show them the entire set of DNA results.

The "motive" suggested by police is not consitent in any way with what Jodi's family believed to be the case. According to the police, Jodi had found out that Luke was seeing another girl, and was planning to "confront" him with it. Yet, according to her mum, Jodi was grounded that afternoon, and was ungrounded, on a whim, by her mother at 4.30pm. She was "chuffed"  and left "happily" to meet Luke. According to the judge, Jodi left "joyfully" to meet Luke that afternoon - hardy the sort of emotional state one would expect from a girl who had written in her diary "I think I would die if we broke up."

There are DNA pofiles from more than one male in the crime scene records - the problem is the paperwork was such a shambles that it was very difficult to properly identify the significance of various results. I thin you could be correct, though, and that there may have been more than one attacker.

Offline tyler

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Thank you Dr Lean. The 'motive' is not really plausible then. It appears to be more of a sexually motivated crime imo.

Offline sandra L

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The police originally thought so! In the first week or so of the enquiry, police sources were being quoted as suggesting that Jodi may have interrupted a "pervert" performing a "sex act" in the woods. Unfortunately, this suggestion didn't address why Jodi would have been in the woods, or why a pervert would, having been interrupted, decide that the obvious thing to do in response would be to brutally murder a 14 year old girl, but that's beside the point

The facts of the matter are that poor Jodi was found stripped naked, her hands bound behind her back her breast, abdomen and mouth mutilated, and traces of semen and sperm found on her body and clothing. If that does not suggest a sexually motivated crime then I don't really know what does. it seems L&B tried to muddy the waters between a sexual crime in its own right, and a sexually motivated crime, for reasons of their own.

However, the act of stripping Jodi naked was, in itself, a sexual crime in law, so even that "dstinction" - if it can be called such a thing, doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I never, ever understood why L&B were so determined to maintain that the attack on Jodi was not, in any way, sexual or sexually motivated, after their initial contention that it was so.

Offline Jan

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Can you remind me what time of day they thing the attack happened ? or is there just a window between the time she went out and the time she was found?

It seems hard to believe that there were not more witnesses to who was around that area.

I think the parents had said she was told not to go to that particular area - is that because it was known to be frequented by particularly dangerous people - or because it was just badly lit?



Offline nugnug

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the officail time is between 450 and 545.

though actully the patholigist couldent give a time of death.

Offline Jan

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bit like JB then. Although I would have thought with todays forensic ability it would have not have been that difficult.

So a time then when there could have been quite a few people about? Or was it a really secluded area?.

I know I have put these on another thread - but these words from Amanda Knox do resonate with me

They have neither proof, nor logic, nor the facts on their side. They only have their slanders against me, their personal opinions about me. They want you to think I’m a monster because it is easy to condemn a monster. It is easy to dismiss a monster’s defence as deception"





Offline nugnug

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because the police hadent made any attempt to cover the body the patholgist said it was not in good enough condition to get a time of death.

he also said that he thought the body had been moved at that one of the reasons he couldn't give a time.

its actually harder to get an acrute time of death than people think.

Offline sandra L

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The area where Jodi was murdered is directly behind a large High School with some 900 pupils in 2003. There was a concert taking place in the school that evening, so it is likely that there were even more people around than normal (there were after school clubs, etc, running in the school premises, and it was a "Community High School" which meant that evening classes for adults were also run from the premises.)

Within 15 minutes either side of the claimed time of death (TOD was claimed to be 5.15pm, so the timeframe I'm talking about here is from 5pm to 5.30pm) there are something like 12 people who are known to have been either on the path, or in the woodland strip, all within yards of where Jodi was murdered. Some were dog walkers, some were cyclists, some were kids playing in the woodland strip, some were relatives of Jodi, whose motorbike was propped, riderless, against the wall at the V point where it was claimed Jodi climbed through from the path side to the woodland side (the relatives were unable to say where they were at that precise time - 5.15pm, the actual claimed time of the murder, but somehow, that ended up being OK). Not one of them saw or heard anything.

One witness did report a very loud scream, but that was later in the evening, around 8pm.

Although the claim, by the time the case came to court, was that Jodi was "not allowed" to use the path because it was "too secluded," the evidence supports the fact that there was no restriction on Jodi using the path - she, and her friends, and her siblings and relatives had all used the path over the years - her own grandmother said so on the stand. Also, it was June 30th - in this part of Scotland it is still daylight at 10.30pm at that time of year, so "badly lit" at 5pm in the evening wouldn't have been a concern - in fact, Jodi's curfew was 10pm - she could have come back up the path to go home, and "badly lit"  would still not have been a concern.

Jodi's cousins were known to hang around in the woodland strip behind the wall - they had a "gang hut" within a few feet of where Jodi's body was found, so "too dangerous" would not have been an issue either. Incidentally, no-one could give the police any real reason for Jodi's mother's claims that Jodi was not allowed to use the path "alone,"  and Jodi's sister admitted on the stand that her mother "knew perfectly well" that Jodi used the path.