Author Topic: Update on the telephone engineers testimony  (Read 9996 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #120 on: June 14, 2014, 11:03:PM »
I found out the same info but I think the call was routed through Maldon that's why they couldn't given a definitive answer on the phone call claim.

Who is they?  There was an engineer from the phone company who testified that such a call was made.  He lied to help the defense by claiming there definitely was a call made? 

If I didn't care about accuracy and only about claiming Jeremy was guilty no matter what I would say great then there is no evidence of a call was made at all.  That actually hurts Jeremy's defense.  But I do care about accuracy so is there actual documentary evidence that proves there would have been no way to tell if a call had actually been made?

If we are going to discount trial testimony we need a pretty solid basis to do so.   

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline lookout

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #121 on: June 14, 2014, 11:10:PM »
I am being thick ( and young ;D) how did a phone bill get calculated then? And what did you do if you thought it was wrong?





Phone bills were calculated by minutes/hours spent on the phone. An example was  when I phoned my daughter in Oz,it worked out at about £1 for 3 minutes. An operator was always at hand,151 if anything went wrong,,and bills were referred to BT who had the monopoly over the phone system in those days.
Sometimes I had to go through the International dept if I couldn't get through directly.
My phone bills back then were atrocious. ;D ;D ;D

Offline Jan

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #122 on: June 14, 2014, 11:48:PM »


But what if you said I did not phone OZ - how would the records prove you did and on what day?

Phone bills were calculated by minutes/hours spent on the phone. An example was  when I phoned my daughter in Oz,it worked out at about £1 for 3 minutes. An operator was always at hand,151 if anything went wrong,,and bills were referred to BT who had the monopoly over the phone system in those days.
Sometimes I had to go through the International dept if I couldn't get through directly.
My phone bills back then were atrocious. ;D ;D ;D

But what if you said I did not phone OZ - how would the records prove you did and on what day?

Offline Caroline

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #123 on: June 14, 2014, 11:53:PM »
Who is they? There was an engineer from the phone company who testified that such a call was made.  He lied to help the defense by claiming there definitely was a call made? 

If I didn't care about accuracy and only about claiming Jeremy was guilty no matter what I would say great then there is no evidence of a call was made at all.  That actually hurts Jeremy's defense.  But I do care about accuracy so is there actual documentary evidence that proves there would have been no way to tell if a call had actually been made?

If we are going to discount trial testimony we need a pretty solid basis to do so.

Which engineer? I'm NOT defending Jeremy, I'd like to know the truth also - where is the testimony where it is stated that a call took place and NOT testimony that explains what would happen IF a call took place?
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Offline Jan

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #124 on: June 15, 2014, 12:21:AM »
Which engineer? I'm NOT defending Jeremy, I'd like to know the truth also - where is the testimony where it is stated that a call took place and NOT testimony that explains what would happen IF a call took place?

I can only see a mention in a book about an engineer who appeared for the police -and there is only an extract of the testimony . I will have another look around.

Offline Jan

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #125 on: June 15, 2014, 12:27:AM »
only found part of the testimony - if it helps


Offline Caroline

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #126 on: June 15, 2014, 12:38:AM »
only found part of the testimony - if it helps

Thanks Jansus - the statement confirms that there was NO WAY to record numbers or times - it ran a basic meter system. So what is Scipio on about? If you have the evidence Scipio, just post it or accept that you're wrong.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 12:54:AM by Caroline »
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #127 on: June 15, 2014, 01:10:AM »
Which engineer? I'm NOT defending Jeremy, I'd like to know the truth also - where is the testimony where it is stated that a call took place and NOT testimony that explains what would happen IF a call took place?

I was told that in the Queen's English this, "There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant."

means the engineer testified that a call was definitely made from WHF to Goldhanger the night of the murders.

"to the effect" can be a phrase or can just be distinct words.

An example of it used as a phrase with the phrase having a set meaning is, "he said words to the effect of John Gotti being a known gangster"

Are you saying this is wrong and that it actually means:

"expert advice was given as to what the effect would be if someone called from WHF but then left the receiver off the hook"?

If it means such I wonder why the court said "as claimed by the appellant" because in most of his statements he maintained the caller hung up not that the call was abandoned by Nevill simply putting the phone down. If he testified that the phone was simply put down not hung up that's not very bright at all on his part.   

If the expert did not testify a phone call was made then I was mislead by a Bamber supporter several months ago who went over the Appeal decision with me to correct my "erroneous American bastardization".   I responded online to an article and had to register to do so and my contact info was used by the author to contact me.

If the phone company was in fact not able to confirm a call had been made at all then things are even worse for Jeremy than I thought. 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Caroline

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #128 on: June 15, 2014, 01:58:AM »
I was told that in the Queen's English this, "There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant."

means the engineer testified that a call was definitely made from WHF to Goldhanger the night of the murders.

"to the effect" can be a phrase or can just be distinct words.

An example of it used as a phrase with the phrase having a set meaning is, "he said words to the effect of John Gotti being a known gangster"

Are you saying this is wrong and that it actually means:

"expert advice was given as to what the effect would be if someone called from WHF but then left the receiver off the hook"?

If it means such I wonder why the court said "as claimed by the appellant" because in most of his statements he maintained the caller hung up not that the call was abandoned by Nevill simply putting the phone down. If he testified that the phone was simply put down not hung up that's not very bright at all on his part.   

If the expert did not testify a phone call was made then I was mislead by a Bamber supporter several months ago who went over the Appeal decision with me to correct my "erroneous American bastardization".   I responded online to an article and had to register to do so and my contact info was used by the author to contact me.

If the phone company was in fact not able to confirm a call had been made at all then things are even worse for Jeremy than I thought.

Yes, that is correct. The word 'abandoned' was probably just used to describe what Jeremy said 'Neville hung up the call'. It doesn't mean Jeremy used that term - I think you might be being a bit pedantic here.

You were misled BUT many of us have been. I think you will find that we all want to know the truth (whatever that might be). However, it really doesn't make things any worse for Jeremy as it can't be proven either way - meaning we STILL simply don't know if the call took place or not or if a call DID take place, who made it.
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #129 on: June 15, 2014, 04:47:AM »
Yes, that is correct. The word 'abandoned' was probably just used to describe what Jeremy said 'Neville hung up the call'. It doesn't mean Jeremy used that term - I think you might be being a bit pedantic here.

You were misled BUT many of us have been. I think you will find that we all want to know the truth (whatever that might be). However, it really doesn't make things any worse for Jeremy as it can't be proven either way - meaning we STILL simply don't know if the call took place or not or if a call DID take place, who made it.

If Jeremy is guilty then it is obvious no call was made at all.  There is much talk about the cordless phone that was in the shop and how it contained a memory to indicate the last several calls. If that phone were present he could simply call his answering machne with it and it would record that there had been a call made to his house.  The phone not being present ruined the ability to establish the existence of a call quite obviously. 

Since it is only his word a call was made and nothing more that means even more he would need to in detail be able to explain why his father would make the call and would have the opportunity to do so.     

For reasons I have set out previously this is good reason to doubt Nevill ever made a call.

Then when you factor in the evidence Sheila can't have killed herself and someone else had to move her body, put away the suppressor and open and close the bible in her blood then this simply establishes even more that the call from Nevill never actually happened.

These points have not been addressed by those insisting he called and yet have to be dealt with in order to establish the call likely occurred.

1) Nevill had no opportunity to call

A) The killer entered the bedroom and shot both parents a combined 11 times, there was no phone in the bedroom to use prior to the killer opening fire.  All admit he didn't call after the shooting started because he could not speak and would have announced she had been shooting if that were the case. 

B) There is no evidence at all that anything happened prior to the killer entering the bedroom to shoot the parents.  The claim that the killer had Nevill downstairs not only is not supported by any evidence but makes no sense.  If SHeila were having delusions she would not make a conscious decision to allow him to use th ephone, fail to shoot him while he was on the phone and then march him upstairs to shoot him in the bedroom with his wife.  The tale makes no sense at all from the alleged standpoint of Sheila in a crazy rage and there is not a shred of evidence any such thing happened. Nevill woudl not have been given any opportunity to use the phone is the bottom line.

2) Even if by some miracle Nevill were given the opportunity to use the phone he had no reason to call Jeremy

A) Nevill was bigger and stronger than Jeremy so had a better physical ability than Jeremy to disarm Sheila

B) Nevill was in a position to disarm Sheila and had the necessity to do so, Jeremy would take 20 minutes or more to arrive.  Why would he wait 20 minutes hoping Jeremy would arrive in time to disarm her instead of doing it himself?

C) Sheila and Jeremy did not get along.  Seeing Jeremy would make things worse not better.  The person with the calming effect on her an dbest chance of disarming her peacably was Nevill. 

D) Jeremy had an answering machine and kept the phone on the bottom floor. Chances are the phone would not wake him up even if it rang incessantly and even if it did wake him he would take several minutes to reach the phone. The answering machine would pick up after 4-6 rings rings.  So Nevill could at best expect to leave a message on an answering machine that might not be listened to until many hours later.

E) If Nevill was too worried to disarm her with his bare hands and truly in fear why would he risk being shot by sitting on the phone where he would be a dead duck if she caught him?  It would take several minutes for Jeremy to answer and he would be an easy target the entire time.  If truly in fear for his safety then he would have armed himself.  There were guns, knives and other potential weapons that he would have grabbed if he had been left alone in the kitchen.

F) If too panicked to do anything himself he would have called police not put his son in harms way if he saw a real threat.  So Nevill would not have called anyone unless he saw a real threat that he could not handle himself and for a threat that great he would not call Jeremy he would call police. 

3) Jeremy lied about the phone being disconnected and being able to immediately use it

4) Sheila didn't beat or kill anyone else or even load the gun

A) Sheila would have had elevated lead levels on her hands had she loaded the bullets in the gun as claimed and in a frenzy loading fast would also have damaged at least the nail of the finger she used to push the bullets in the magazine

B) Sheila would have had back spatter of Nevill's blood on her body had she been the one who delivered the blows to Nevill in the kitchen.  She also would have broken several nails by beating him so severely.  The rifle stock broke and his head bashed in.  One has to hold the rifle tightly to do this and when a rifle hits something hard there is a jolt to the person wielding it. The notion her nails would not have been touched is preposterous.  She also would have cut her feet on the crockery on the floor of the kitchen and been likely to get step in blood or sugar. 

C) The killer of the other 4 victims would have had high velocity back spatter as well as gunshot residue on the killer's body and clothing.  She had neither.

D) There is no evidence at all to suggest she would be at risk for any delusions around 2:30 AM.  Had she stopped taking her medication or were high on narcotics or drunk she could be at risk but none of these things were the case. Moreover, because of everyone else was sleeping there would be no risk of them causing agitaiton.

5) Sheila didn't kill herself

A) She was killed with the suppressor attached to the gun and could not have put it away after her death and could only have potentially killed herself with the suppressor if she stepped on the trigger with her toe but was seated when she was shot not standing.

B) Sheila was seated when killed and then moved flat shortly thereafter by someone else who moved her body flat.  She can't have moved her own body after she was dead.  Once flat blood dripped down the side of her neck and pooled on the floor.

C) The bible was placed in the pool of blood then repeatedly opened and closed while the blood was still wet.  She could not have done these things since she was dead.

6) The evidence thus establishes that Sheila didn't do anything but rather was framed. There is substantial evidence that th eperson who framed her was Jeremy and this fake phone call is one of the ways he attempted to frame her.  Since she didn't do anything the claim Nevill called to say she did is sheer nonsense.  Jeremy lied about many things including telling police Sheila had fired all the guns in the house and had gone shooting with him.  He admitted later he hadn't seen her shoot a gun.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline lookout

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #130 on: June 15, 2014, 09:33:AM »
But what if you said I did not phone OZ - how would the records prove you did and on what day?





There were records of the calls on the bill which was itemised and timed to coincide with the price charged.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #131 on: June 15, 2014, 09:39:AM »
None of Ralph Bambers blood, not one drop was present, or found, or detected inside the main bedroom, so quite simply Ralph could not possibly have been shot four times in the bedroom, it is impossible for that to have happened...
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 09:40:AM by mike tesko »
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Offline mike tesko

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #132 on: June 15, 2014, 09:42:AM »
There was only one soot of 'O' type blood found upstairs on some wallpaper which could have been either Ralphs blood, or blood from Daniel or Nicholas...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #133 on: June 15, 2014, 09:49:AM »
Ralphs blood was all over the kitchen floor, and his bloodied fingermarks were deposited on the edge of the kitchen worktop close to where the telephone was. On the kitchen floor near to where the phone was located were mutiple spots of his blood - so this places Ralph in close proximity of the telephone still able to move around. If Ralph had been shot elsewhere in the farmhouse there would have been an obvious blood trail, especially if he had been shot up to four times whilst he was in the main bedroom...

I can go along with him gaving possibly been shot once upstairs in the bedroom, but nit foyr times, without a decisive bloodtrail to support such a scenario...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Jan

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #134 on: June 15, 2014, 10:24:AM »
I was told that in the Queen's English this, "There was, however, expert evidence called as to the effect of a telephone call having been made from White House Farm to Goldhanger which was then abandoned by the caller with the receiver being left off the cradle, as claimed by the appellant."

means the engineer testified that a call was definitely made from WHF to Goldhanger the night of the murders.

"to the effect" can be a phrase or can just be distinct words.

An example of it used as a phrase with the phrase having a set meaning is, "he said words to the effect of John Gotti being a known gangster"

Are you saying this is wrong and that it actually means:

"expert advice was given as to what the effect would be if someone called from WHF but then left the receiver off the hook"?

If it means such I wonder why the court said "as claimed by the appellant" because in most of his statements he maintained the caller hung up not that the call was abandoned by Nevill simply putting the phone down. If he testified that the phone was simply put down not hung up that's not very bright at all on his part.   

If the expert did not testify a phone call was made then I was mislead by a Bamber supporter several months ago who went over the Appeal decision with me to correct my "erroneous American bastardization".   I responded online to an article and had to register to do so and my contact info was used by the author to contact me.

If the phone company was in fact not able to confirm a call had been made at all then things are even worse for Jeremy than I thought.

to be fair the whole statement does not appear to be there - I  am not sure if it is available anywhere -I don't think we can come to a conclusion until we see the rest of it.