The last ultimate test of gun, to prove sound moderator was not used in shooting

[scipio_usmc]

SO NOW WE CANT RELY ON LOGS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT CLEAR? WELL THATS A GOOD EXCUSE. SO IF WE CANT BELIEVE LOGS AND CAN ONLY RELY ONLY STATEMENTS AT THE SCENE OF A CRIME THE POLICE CAN SAY ANYTHING AND CHANGE THEIR MINDS LATER -PRICELESS

Logs written by someone not a witness are naturally unreliable. 

The best evidence is from a witness on a second hand account.

The logs cannot trump what ever single witness states they saw or worse what the physical evidence documents.

In the meantime you evne are so ridicilous as to insist not only that the were 2 bodies in the kitchen but 1 of the bodies had to be Sheila evne though that is never asserted in any of the logs.

The log confirms that one body was seen in the window of the kitchen before they went in not 2 bodies. 

That body was slumped over a chair and was believed to be a woman so undeniably was Nevill.

So it is a known fact that they thought there was a dead woman then reported a dead man hence a reason for confusion.

It is an undenaible fact there was a dry pool of blood by Sheila's body in the bedroom and that she had to have died there.

It is an undeniable fact that June was shot in bed and wounded too severely to have made it downstairs. 

It is an undeniable fact that the raid team and those who went in right after all say there was only 1 body in the kitchen and that Sheila was on the floor in the master bedroom.

It is an undeniable fact that there would have been no reason for police to have immediately moved her body  formt he kitchen to the bedroom/

It is an undenaible fact that DR Craig looked at her body in the bedroom with the pool of dried blood near it and assessed she died there.

You have no leg to stand on at all you have no vlaid reaosn to beleive Sheila's body was anywhere other than in the master bedroom.  The belief her body was in the kitchen is irraitonal and contradicted by all the avilable evidence.

[grahameb]

Logs written by someone not a witness are naturally unreliable. 

The best evidence is from a witness on a second hand account.

The logs cannot trump what ever single witness states they saw or worse what the physical evidence documents.

In the meantime you evne are so ridicilous as to insist not only that the were 2 bodies in the kitchen but 1 of the bodies had to be Sheila evne though that is never asserted in any of the logs.

The log confirms that one body was seen in the window of the kitchen before they went in not 2 bodies. 

That body was slumped over a chair and was believed to be a woman so undeniably was Nevill.

So it is a known fact that they thought there was a dead woman then reported a dead man hence a reason for confusion.

It is an undenaible fact there was a dry pool of blood by Sheila's body in the bedroom and that she had to have died there.

It is an undeniable fact that June was shot in bed and wounded too severely to have made it downstairs. 

It is an undeniable fact that the raid team and those who went in right after all say there was only 1 body in the kitchen and that Sheila was on the floor in the master bedroom.

It is an undeniable fact that there would have been no reason for police to have immediately moved her body  formt he kitchen to the bedroom/

It is an undenaible fact that DR Craig looked at her body in the bedroom with the pool of dried blood near it and assessed she died there.

You have no leg to stand on at all you have no vlaid reaosn to beleive Sheila's body was anywhere other than in the master bedroom.  The belief her body was in the kitchen is irraitonal and contradicted by all the avilable evidence.

If what you say is true then there is no use in keeping logs if they are characteristically unreliable? Wke up and smell the coffee man. You have no idea how rediculous you are.

[scipio_usmc]

If what you say is true then there is no use in keeping logs if they are characteristically unreliable? Wke up and smell the coffee man. You have no idea how rediculous you are.

They should not keep logs because the logs can contain errors?  Logs serve their purpose.  Their function is not to use later on to determine what the fire team witnessed.  The logs do not contain all details let alone most details.  That is why they have people testify as to what happened instea dof using the logs.

I am not the one sleeping you are.

[grahameb]

They should not keep logs because the logs can contain errors?  Logs serve their purpose.  Their function is not to use later on to determine what the fire team witnessed.  The logs do not contain all details let alone most details.  That is why they have people testify as to what happened instea dof using the logs.

I am not the one sleeping you are.

Unfortunately you still haven't answered my question that if they are so unreliable then why keep them at all? I also disagree with you. The logs are an indication as to what actually happened and should be and usually are produced in court for that specific purpose. That is also why the audio tapes were used that day as well. They were concrete evidence to what actually happened. But they have gone missing for some reason possibly held under PII? No Witness statements are not proof that actually happened as such things can be altered to suit anyone who wants to alter them. That is why I find it strange that these tapes were not produced in court? But you know what I find really strange, is the fact that for someone who states that he is a stickler for the "TRUTH" you do not even appear to be curious about these things and just simply believe the police just because they are the police.

[scipio_usmc]

Unfortunately you still haven't answered my question that if they are so unreliable then why keep them at all? I also disagree with you. The logs are an indication as to what actually happened and should be and usually are produced in court for that specific purpose. That is also why the audio tapes were used that day as well. They were concrete evidence to what actually happened. But they have gone missing for some reason possibly held under PII? No Witness statements are not proof that actually happened as such things can be altered to suit anyone who wants to alter them. That is why I find it strange that these tapes were not produced in court? But you know what I find really strange, is the fact that for someone who states that he is a stickler for the "TRUTH" you do not even appear to be curious about these things and just simply believe the police just because they are the police.

The whole reason audio tapes are kept is in case there is some problem or dispute and they need their ass covered.  The main purpose is so that there is a record of a call by the public but to some extent police as well if there is some issue.

The log is simply to have a genral idea of an incident.  An incident doesn't always end in an investigation.  Incidents often end in nothing and being closed rapidly.

Jeremy supporters have lied up and down and trhough their teeth about every aspect of the investigation and case.  Jeremy supporters insisted that the fire team was using walking talkies throughout the entire exercise and ever single thing they said was being taped.  Phone calls to HQ were taped.  The fire team fed information to people outside who then used their police radios to contact HQ and such was not being taped. Phone calls are taped not walkie talkie messages.

So parts of the log that you harp on were radio calls from police cars at the scene back to HQ.  DO those logs indicate where the weapon was found?  Do they name the victims and say where each victim was found?  What level of detail do they provide?  Very limited.   The log is not by any stretch a complete acocunt and record of every detail encountered by police it is the general details necessary for the incident log. 

Participants write in their notes, statements, affidavits and also verbally testify about what they observed.  That is how things always work an incident log is not used for such.

Historians and especially courts like first person accounts and want to actually be able to question peopel to be able to get them to explain exactly what historians and courts need to know.  Not only do written statements often fail to address issues of concenr they are often ambiguous.  In order to understand exactly what is being claimed yo uneed to be able to question them and ask them point blank and have them clarify further if they answer an an ambiguous manner. 

That is why lawyers depose witnesses and then question them on the stand. 

When people don't want the truth that is when they want to avoid questions being answered and instead rely exclusively on writings as they try to spin what thos ewritings mean in an attempt to fool people.

That's exaclty what is going on with the log trying to fool peopel into thinking there really was 2 peopel in the kitchen and a body moved though it is patently clear that was not the case and even insisting the log says Sheila was in the kitchen though it never names her or mentions a gun in the kithcen or gunman in the kitchen.   

WOrse even Jeremy would have heard a shot fired at her in the kitchen by police not jsut the other police outside who were making the radio calls.  You are the one who needs to wake up and smell the coffee not me.


  In some cases it also burns them such as when their response is slow 

[grahameb]

The whole reason audio tapes are kept is in case there is some problem or dispute and they need their ass covered. The main purpose is so that there is a record of a call by the public but to some extent police as well if there is some issue.

The log is simply to have a genral idea of an incident.  An incident doesn't always end in an investigation.  Incidents often end in nothing and being closed rapidly.

Jeremy supporters have lied up and down and trhough their teeth about every aspect of the investigation and case.  Jeremy supporters insisted that the fire team was using walking talkies throughout the entire exercise and ever single thing they said was being taped.  Phone calls to HQ were taped.  The fire team fed information to people outside who then used their police radios to contact HQ and such was not being taped. Phone calls are taped not walkie talkie messages.

So parts of the log that you harp on were radio calls from police cars at the scene back to HQ.  DO those logs indicate where the weapon was found?  Do they name the victims and say where each victim was found?  What level of detail do they provide?  Very limited.   The log is not by any stretch a complete acocunt and record of every detail encountered by police it is the general details necessary for the incident log. 

Participants write in their notes, statements, affidavits and also verbally testify about what they observed.  That is how things always work an incident log is not used for such.

Historians and especially courts like first person accounts and want to actually be able to question peopel to be able to get them to explain exactly what historians and courts need to know.  Not only do written statements often fail to address issues of concenr they are often ambiguous.  In order to understand exactly what is being claimed yo uneed to be able to question them and ask them point blank and have them clarify further if they answer an an ambiguous manner. 

That is why lawyers depose witnesses and then question them on the stand. 

When people don't want the truth that is when they want to avoid questions being answered and instead rely exclusively on writings as they try to spin what thos ewritings mean in an attempt to fool people.

That's exaclty what is going on with the log trying to fool peopel into thinking there really was 2 peopel in the kitchen and a body moved though it is patently clear that was not the case and even insisting the log says Sheila was in the kitchen though it never names her or mentions a gun in the kithcen or gunman in the kitchen.   

WOrse even Jeremy would have heard a shot fired at her in the kitchen by police not jsut the other police outside who were making the radio calls.  You are the one who needs to wake up and smell the coffee not me.


  In some cases it also burns them such as when their response is slow

Well the very reason that I and many others have questioned the statements of the raid team means that there is an issue. Now I believe that these logs were not released until 20 years later whilst being held under PII? Now that they are released and have been for some time now we can question the statements in the light of what the logs said. Unfortunately instead of being used as you say they are supposed to be used for, they themselves are questioned in the light of the statements that were made some time after the event.

[Jan]

Its a bit like what the police say when they make an arrest is it not .

"but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court".

perhaps that should apply when the police make statements a month later that do not tie up with radio messages and logs?


They should abide by their own rules

[lookout]

Do as I say and not as I do---------------police motto !

[grahameb]

Its a bit like what the police say when they make an arrest is it not .

"but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court".

perhaps that should apply when the police make statements a month later that do not tie up with radio messages and logs?


They should abide by their own rules

Oh I've seen plenty of those. The police said the accused said and did so and so. But of course the accused can do nothing because there are always two coppers against his word.
I remember seeing my mate all beaten up when he came out of the police station. I asked, "What happened to you". He said the police beat him up in the back of their van. Trouble is if he had argued about it in court all they would say is that he was resisting arrest.
Plenty of it still goes on today.

[scipio_usmc]

Well the very reason that I and many others have questioned the statements of the raid team means that there is an issue. Now I believe that these logs were not released until 20 later whilst being held under PII? Now that they are released and have been for some time now we can question the statements in the light of what the logs said. Unfortunately instead of being used as you say they are suposed to be used for, they themselves are questioned in the light of the statements that were made some time after the event.

You are questiong them because of the logs only and the questions are frankly stupid.

Even among Jeremy supporters only the most dishonest and gullible allege Sheila was killed by police in in the kitchen and moved.  If that actually happened Jeremy would have heard the shot and the allegation would have been researched by the trial attorneys. The suggestion makes no sense at all and the tapes of the calls from people not involved is no more useful than the logs themselves. 

CA7 calling on their radio to say that two bodies were found in the kitchen is worthless because the police from that car were not actual witnesses to such.  They can't contradict the statements of people who actually were there.  Worse the blood on the floor of the bedroom disputes the allegations even more. At best the logs warrant questioning the participants but they were already questioned and stated what they saw. 

You seem to not comprehend the concept of best evidence.  The best evidence as to what the raid team saw and encountered is from the raid team.  the only thing that could refute their claims are claims from other witnesses also there who were in a position to see or hear what happened otherwise physical evidence that proves their claims to be untrue.   

A tape showing that CA 7 did in fact tell the dispatcher 2 bodies were found in the kitchen would not prove that the claim is accurate.  So all the crap about a tape is worthless.

There is a log that says 2 bodies found in the kitchen no twhich bodies and this error was used to create a tale that is preposterous and is not in the least bit supported by the log itself.   

[Steve_uk]

You are questiong them because of the logs only and the questions are frankly stupid.

Even among Jeremy supporters only the most dishonest and gullible allege Sheila was killed by police in in the kitchen and moved.  If that actually happened Jeremy would have heard the shot and the allegation would have been researched by the trial attorneys. The suggestion makes no sense at all and the tapes of the calls from people not involved is no more useful than the logs themselves. 

CA7 calling on their radio to say that two bodies were found in the kitchen is worthless because the police from that car were not actual witnesses to such.  They can't contradict the statements of people who actually were there.  Worse the blood on the floor of the bedroom disputes the allegations even more. At best the logs warrant questioning the participants but they were already questioned and stated what they saw. 

You seem to not comprehend the concept of best evidence.  The best evidence as to what the raid team saw and encountered is from the raid team.  the only thing that could refute their claims are claims from other witnesses also there who were in a position to see or hear what happened otherwise physical evidence that proves their claims to be untrue.   

A tape showing that CA 7 did in fact tell the dispatcher 2 bodies were found in the kitchen would not prove that the claim is accurate.  So all the crap about a tape is worthless.

There is a log that says 2 bodies found in the kitchen no twhich bodies and this error was used to create a tale that is preposterous and is not in the least bit supported by the log itself.

Scipio you make some good points,but credit people with a little respect in your posts whichever side of the argument they are on. To cast some people as deliberate liars,their only purpose to come on here to deceive is disingenuous on your part- I'm sure people have many other things to busy themselves with throughout the day than to engage in such activity. As the title of a thread started by Patti some months ago sums up: we are all "seeking the truth for Jeremy Bamber" wherever this may take us.

By the way-whilst the Police were storming the farmhouse Jeremy was taken into the village to make a telephone call,so it's quite conceivable that were a shot fired he would not have heard it.

[scipio_usmc]

Scipio you make some good points,but credit people with a little respect in your posts whichever side of the argument they are on. To cast some people as deliberate liars,their only purpose to come on here to deceive is disingenuous on your part- I'm sure people have many other things to busy themselves with throughout the day than to engage in such activity. As the title of a thread started by Patti some months ago sums up: we are all "seeking the truth for Jeremy Bamber" wherever this may take us.

By the way-whilst the Police were storming the farmhouse Jeremy was taken into the village to make a telephone call,so it's quite conceivable that were a shot fired he would not have heard it.

Jeremy made his call between 5:45 and 6 not at 7:30.  He was at the scene when they raided th ehouse and after the bodies were reported he was moved because he was within earshot of the announcement about the bodies and they didn't want him hearing people nonchalantly talking about stiffs and so forth which would upset a normal person in his place.

I respect posts when theymake sense and/or have some reaosnable basis.

When they are absolute fairytales not supported by any evidence whatsoever and makes no sense then there is nothing to respect. The fact of the matter is that people are taking a log that merely asserts 1 male and 1 female found in the kitchen not who the alleged female was hence part of the confucsion because if it had said old lady like Collins claims to see and then Nevill it would be plain as day they could not have bene talking about Sheila, then unscrupulous people would not be making up wild stories.  It doesn't even support that Sheila was in the kitchen let alone shot there by police then moved upstairs and shot again by them.

To entertain a story like that on the basis of a log that merely says 2 bodies in the kitchen is crazy let alone a log that all the witnesses and the physical evidence contradicts.

It would be like reading a log saying I found a body and then aking up all sorts of crazy details that the acocunt in the log doesn't suggest at all.

[Caroline]

Scipio you make some good points,but credit people with a little respect in your posts whichever side of the argument they are on. To cast some people as deliberate liars,their only purpose to come on here to deceive is disingenuous on your part- I'm sure people have many other things to busy themselves with throughout the day than to engage in such activity. As the title of a thread started by Patti some months ago sums up: we are all "seeking the truth for Jeremy Bamber" wherever this may take us.

By the way-whilst the Police were storming the farmhouse Jeremy was taken into the village to make a telephone call,so it's quite conceivable that were a shot fired he would not have heard it.

Well said Steve - but it's simply a tactic intended to make people question themselves. However, it would only work on people who aren't confident in their opinions.

[grahameb]

Jeremy made his call between 5:45 and 6 not at 7:30.  He was at the scene when they raided th ehouse and after the bodies were reported he was moved because he was within earshot of the announcement about the bodies and they didn't want him hearing people nonchalantly talking about stiffs and so forth which would upset a normal person in his place.

I respect posts when theymake sense and/or have some reaosnable basis.

When they are absolute fairytales not supported by any evidence whatsoever and makes no sense then there is nothing to respect. The fact of the matter is that people are taking a log that merely asserts 1 male and 1 female found in the kitchen not who the alleged female was hence part of the confucsion because if it had said old lady like Collins claims to see and then Nevill it would be plain as day they could not have bene talking about Sheila, then unscrupulous people would not be making up wild stories.  It doesn't even support that Sheila was in the kitchen let alone shot there by police then moved upstairs and shot again by them.

To entertain a story like that on the basis of a log that merely says 2 bodies in the kitchen is crazy let alone a log that all the witnesses and the physical evidence contradicts.

It would be like reading a log saying I found a body and then aking up all sorts of crazy details that the acocunt in the log doesn't suggest at all.

I am not making up fairytales. All I am doing is quoting the radio logs and giving my opinion and explanation of them, nothing more. I will accept the radio logs as correct until there is concrete proof that they are not.
That does not include stories made up by any of the raid team after the act. To me each of their testimonies appear to be "harmonized" if you like, too good to be true, as if they had sat in a debriefing room (which they did of course) and made to fit so as to avoid a police investigation from the Commissioners.

[grahameb]

Well said Steve - but it's simply a tactic intended to make people question themselves. However, it would only work on people who aren't confident in their opinions.

It is a tactic to antagonize others in order to try and cause them to snap and lose their tempers. Then he can claim things like "according to others your family has a history of mental illness" and the like. Such people are unscrupulous. Just wait til my brother gets out of Broadmore.    Sorry sorry I have a sick sense of humour I know.