Is Sheila guilty?

[Adam]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5213.0.html

[Alias]

Why couldn't he have carried it out alone?  What specific tasks require at least 1 additional person?  Are you tlaking about before and after or are you talking about during the actual commission?

The actual comission. It is a daunting task to climb into a dark house in the middle of the night, EXPECTING to be able to control five people all on your own. You cannot be sure that everyone is in their beds. Elderly people usually get up during the night to go to the bathroom for one. Dogs barking waking everyone up is another risk factor.
I have heard some attempts of explaining where Sheila was while the rest of the family were being killed, but none of them sound plausible to me. She wasn´t "led" to the bedroom by Jeremy - it is BS, somebody must have gone directly to her room to control her! She wouldn´t have been passive while her boys were being shot - even Colin says so.
If I am to believe Jeremy did it - and I am quite willing to - there must have been an accomplice. Save yourself the trouble of trying to convince me otherwise, won´t work, I can´t see Jeremy doing this alone.

[nugnug]

id say for him to have done it there would of had to have been an acomplice but nobodys ever came up with a credible acomplice.

[scipio_usmc]

The actual comission. It is a daunting task to climb into a dark house in the middle of the night, EXPECTING to be able to control five people all on your own. You cannot be sure that everyone is in their beds. Elderly people usually get up during the night to go to the bathroom for one. Dogs barking waking everyone up is another risk factor.
I have heard some attempts of explaining where Sheila was while the rest of the family were being killed, but none of them sound plausible to me. She wasn´t "led" to the bedroom by Jeremy - it is BS, somebody must have gone directly to her room to control her! She wouldn´t have been passive while her boys were being shot - even Colin says so.
If I am to believe Jeremy did it - and I am quite willing to - there must have been an accomplice. Save yourself the trouble of trying to convince me otherwise, won´t work, I can´t see Jeremy doing this alone.

The whole reason to do it at the hour in question is in part because they will be easier to manage because they are in their beds.  The chance of any being up at 2:30 is unlikely let alone more than 1 up.

There are numerous cases where single killers have slaughtered entire families overnight.  There ar ealso cases where they salughtered some an d fled and the remaining members of the house di dnot wake up and only found out in he morning what happened.

Not all such cases involve guns.  There are cases of knives and axes being used to kill everyone.

Just recently someone in California who went on a rampage with guns killed his 3 roomates using a knife.

The suggestion it is not possible for one person to do it is not true.

It would be safer to use an accomplice but on the other hand that leaves an extra person to talk and who needs an alibi.     

If he hid the keys instead of leaving them in the locks and replaced them after the murders tha towuld make it harder for anyone to get out of the house before he killed them even if they did manage to reach a door.  Whether he did that or not who knows.

He might not have bothered expecting them to be killed in bed.

 

[Alias]

The problem with this case for me is that I cannot see where Sheila was. I also cannot see her being "led". People resort to making her out to have been a blathering idiot of an easily led "girl" (she was a 28 year old mother!) to make their scenarios fit.

[Adam]

The actual comission. It is a daunting task to climb into a dark house in the middle of the night, EXPECTING to be able to control five people all on your own. You cannot be sure that everyone is in their beds. Elderly people usually get up during the night to go to the bathroom for one. Dogs barking waking everyone up is another risk factor.
I have heard some attempts of explaining where Sheila was while the rest of the family were being killed, but none of them sound plausible to me. She wasn´t "led" to the bedroom by Jeremy - it is BS, somebody must have gone directly to her room to control her! She wouldn´t have been passive while her boys were being shot - even Colin says so.
If I am to believe Jeremy did it - and I am quite willing to - there must have been an accomplice. Save yourself the trouble of trying to convince me otherwise, won´t work, I can´t see Jeremy doing this alone.

Contol ? They should all be asleep. Jeremy just had to control a gun.

There have been lots of reasons & ways Sheila was found in the bedroom.

[Alias]

I don´t find any of them neither reasonable nor plausible. Jeremy came from outside and couldn´t know whether one of them was out of bed.
Sheila was IN the house, she would have the advantage of knowing where people were. Besides, her parents wouldn´t be startled by her moving around, they would know the sounds of her and expect them, since she was staying over.
June was a light sleeper - perhaps Sheila too. Another risk factor for Jeremy coming from the outside.

[nugnug]

besides theres no sighn of forced entry.

[scipio_usmc]

The problem with this case for me is that I cannot see where Sheila was. I also cannot see her being "led". People resort to making her out to have been a blathering idiot of an easily led "girl" (she was a 28 year old mother!) to make their scenarios fit.

She could have been in bed till he woke her up to take her in the master bedroom to kill her.

People suggest Nevill was too scared to try to disarm Sheila and willingly di dwhatever she told him to yet have a problem believing Sheila would be too scared to try to fight back and would simply march to the master bedroom and sit. The first shot was fired several inches from her body it is believed.  Making her sit down and then shooting her would not be some great feat.  He coudl have told her if she didn't he woudl go kill the twins.  They could already have been killed but she didn't necessarily know one way or the other if she were in bed.   He could have dragged her out of bed kicking and screaming we have no idea. Making the bed after to the limited extent it was made doesn't take substantial effort.

Under the influcence of her medicine she would be less likely to physically resist.  That can't be forgotten as well.

If everyone were together in 1 room the task would have bee much harder which is why it was done at night.  More magazines would have been necessary and help had they all been in the same room unless someone were a really goot shot and immobilized the all using the 11 shots and then would have time to reload to finish them. Otherwise reloading would be a challenge because who would let someone relaod without trying to attack them or alternative to run away?  That's not what happened though.  June and Ralph were together when shot she was immobilized he wasn't so that accounts for what happened in the kitchen.  Eithe rhe chased his killer or his killer chased him they struggled, Neville was beaten unconscious then the killer could safely reload and kill him.

Had eveyrone been in the same room then more would have been able to either run away or help subdue the killer before reloading.  Bu again because this was at night and people were in bed that didn't happen.  The boys didn't wake up so why would Sheila have to wake up?

She simply had to have been woken up before she was shot not necessarily before anyone else was shot.

[Alias]

You are not convincing me - I told you to save yourself the trouble.

[scipio_usmc]

I don´t find any of them neither reasonable nor plausible. Jeremy came from outside and couldn´t know whether one of them was out of bed.
Sheila was IN the house, she would have the advantage of knowing where people were. Besides, her parents wouldn´t be startled by her moving around, they would know the sounds of her and expect them, since she was staying over.
June was a light sleeper - perhaps Sheila too. Another risk factor for Jeremy coming from the outside.

The expectation would be to have everyone in bed at that hour.

In fact they ate dinner and went to bed later than usual.  Colin said that the boys would go to bed after dinner and Nevill typically went to bed by 9:30 and June a little after that.  He said Sheila had been tired lately and would typically go to bed early as well.  She left the party the night before they went to WHF early to go home to sleep.  There would be an expecation they would be alseep and there is nothign to suggest anyone found him after he entered.

He didn't shoot someone downstairs and then go upstairs to finish the rest off. The shooting started upstairs in the master bedroom and proceeded downstairs after that.

Since people were staying over if there was any noise it could have been Sheila or the boys going to the bathroom so noise would not necessarily warrant any attention anyway.
Noise when only Nevill and June were home would be different.  But he surely would want to try to be quiet and could very well have gone unnoticed till he entered their bedroom and turned on the lights because who would shoot them in the dark? 

[Alias]

Dogs would have been barking in the Jeremy entered the farm scenario. The family dog was called "the Pest" because it was so noisy and barked all the time.

[Adam]

besides theres no sighn of forced entry.

Jeremy said in court & to the police  he knew how to into WHF through windows. The judge suggested in his summing up it was plausible Jeremy may have entered WHF on the night.

A hack saw was found outside the bathroom window. It has been suggested this was used days beforehand to ensure a quiet entry on the night.

[scipio_usmc]

You are not convincing me - I told you to save yourself the trouble.

When there is so much evidence to the contrary you have to face that it means you believe what you want to believe jsut because you want to believe it not because that it how things are.

If you refuse to believe people will likely be in bed at 2:30AM who go to sleep hours earlier typically then your problem is simply not wanting to believe something because you don't want to as opposed to not believing it because it objectively is not a credible claim.

The same principle holds true for some other hangups you have suggested you have.

While you may not ever allow your opinion to change regardless of the evidence it is only evidence that could sway many who believe Jeremy is guilty to change their beleifs.

Some may be the same way as you and refuse to accept any evidence of his innocence.

Others like me would accept credible evidence if some were actually found for instance credible evidence of police planting blood would negate the suppressor though more evidence than that needs to be eliminated before his innocence would be genuinely established.  That would be enough for a retrial and if enough evidence were eliminated then there would not even be a basis for a retrial he would simply be set free period.




 

[wilf]

no matter how I try to run the details through my mind I still come up with the same question what was Shiela doing when Ralph and June were shot? why were the children not disturbed? any mother could NOT be dragged away from going to her children without putting up a fight that left marks. and how the hell can you get someone to stay still whilst you position a shot to look like suicide? (even a good shot like Jeremy would find this difficult but then some people say he wasnt)
sorry just does not work!