Neville calling Jeremy. A time for closure ?

[scipio_usmc]

So are you saying that, irrelevant of the sarcasm, goadingand disrespectfulness of Adam's posts, it's inclement upon us to answer him seriously

When the points are significant refusing to do so looks quite bad for those trying to mock him and makes Adam look far better.

Furthermore actually answering them could head off future raising of the issues assuming one could actually take his points to task competently.

The ones I raised are all quite important and the inability to address them singifincaly undermines claims of Jeremy's innocence so someone actually wanting to assert shoudl should try to find a way to address them.

[Jane]

When the points are significant refusing to do so looks quite bad for those trying to mock him and makes Adam look far better.

Furthermore actually answering them could head off future raising of the issues assuming one could actually take his points to task competently.

The ones I raised are all quite important and the inability to address them singifincaly undermines claims of Jeremy's innocence so someone actually wanting to assert shoudl should try to find a way to address them.

Much more satisfying and FAR less irritating is to have him on ignore.

[Adam]

Much more satisfying and FAR less irritating is to have him on ignore.

Try and say something worthwhile about the case. Rather than just post to or about me.

You were wrong for 29 years. So was Caroline & Susan,  but at least they continue to discuss the case.

[Jan]

The judge called Neville's call 'difficult or impossible to understand and explain' / 'mysterious'. He is correct as there are a lot of reasons why Neville would not call Jeremy -


Jeremy may not answer. Regardless of whether he heard the phone ringing or not. BUT HE DID ANSWER SO THAT INVALIDATES YOUR POINT

Neville may not have time. Sheila was going crazy. There were five people inside WHF who were the priority. YOU DONT KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WAS MEANT BY THOSE WORDS AT THAT TIME IS SUBJECTIVE

He may not answer for a long time as was 'sleeping like a log'.  BUT HE DID ANSWER .

Neville may only get the answering machine. DID HE EVEN THINK OF THAT? WHO KNOWS ? PERHAPS JEREMY DID NOT ALWAYS HAVE IT ON - SEE PREVIOUS THREAD

Neville will assume the answering machine is switched on. Making it impossible for Jeremy to answer the phone within 3 - 8 rings as he was 'sleeping like a log'.  HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE WOULD ASSUME - SEE PREVIOUS THREAD ON ANSWERING MACHINE

Jeremy did not like Sheila or understand her illness.  So would just make things worse when trying to talk her down. HE WAS THE ONLY FAMILY PERSON AVAILABLE PERHAPS NB DID NOT WANT OTHERS TO KNOW WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT THAT ONE POINT IN TIME

Sheila did not like Jeremy. ASSUMPTION FROM YOU - HE MADE HER A TABLE REMEMBER

Another adult, June was available at WHF. ? REALLY . WE DONT KNOW WHAT EXACTLY WAS HAPPENING AT THE POINT OF THE CALL SO THIS IS NOT RELEVANT

The rifle was not powerful, being used for vermin. Neville would know this. So Neville would tackle Sheila prior to shots being fired.  IT WAS POWERFUL ENOUGH FOR YOUR MASSACRE AS YOU LIKE TO CALL  IT . WE DONT KNOW WHAT HE MEANT BY HIS WORDS AND WE DONT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THE CALL BUT I AM WILLING TO BET IF A 12 YEAR OLD POINTED A RIFLE AT YOU THAT YOU WOULD TACKLE THEM

Sheila had 'limited'/ no experience with guns. So Neville would tackle Sheila prior to shots being fired. SEE ABOVE

Neville could restrain Sheila easily. If fully or even partially fit. NOT WITH A RIFLE IN HER HANDS

Neville and June together could restrain Sheila easily. If fully or even partially fit.  YOU SAID JUNE WAS ASLEEP- PROBABLY SLEEPING LIKE A LOG

Jeremy was three miles away and not dressed.   SO ? WE DONT KNOW HOW SERIOUS NEVILLE THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO GET - HE MAY NOT HAVE THOUGHT SHE WOULD ACTUALLY FIRE A SHOT?

The police had been called by Neville ten minutes earlier. WE CAN NOT PROVE THAT EITHER WAY

Neville would be putting his only son in danger. SEE COMMENT ABOVE WE DONT KNOW WHAT THE PERCIEVED DANGER WAS AT POINT OF CALL

Jeremy may be scared to go over. He told Liz Rimmington that Sheila was going 'back to the nut house' and told the police she had committed child abuse. Now Neville had told him she had 'gone crazy' with a gun. - POSSIBLE - WHICH IS WHY JEREMY HEISTATED ABOUT WHAT TO DO - HIS FATHER NEVER ASKED HIM TO CALL THE POLICE AND THE CALL ENDED SUDDENLY - SO YES HE COULD HAVE BEEN SCARED - SO PERHAPS NEVILLES FAITH IN HIM WAS MISPLACED.

Jeremy did not have a key to WHF so would have to smash the door down, or smash a window. Or shout through the letter box. Making Sheila more excitable.  Neville may not have been aware that Jeremy could get in through windows.  I DONT THINK IN THE QUICK CALL NEVILLE WOULD HAVE BEEN PONDERING THAT - PERHAPS HE WAS HOPING TO UNLOCK THE DOOR WITH THE KEY BEFORE HE GOT THERE

Sheila would not be pleased to see him. FGS - WHT SORT OF COMMENT IS THAT - HE QUITE OFTEN HELPED HER OUT WHEN COLIN WAS WORSE FOR WEAR!

Jeremy would be reluctant to rush over if answering the phone. Having poor relations with all the family - JB SAID HIS RELATIONS WITH HIS FAMILY WERE NOT THAT BAD - HENCE WHY HE HAD SHARES IN BOTH FAMILY BUSINESS.

Jeremy may refuse to go over. Being tired and upset at being woken.Lookout said it was common for Sheila to have 'one of her turns' so he may have decided to go back to bed. _ BUT HE DID NOT GO BACK TO BED - SO ASSUMPTION OF YOUR OWN MAKING

Jeremy may not rush over. Maybe wasting up to 26 minutes doing strange things. SARACASM - NOT EVEN WORTH WASTING MY TIME ON

Jeremy may just ring nearby farm workers and tell them to go over. Something Neville could do himself and may consider a better option.  - GETTING BORED NOW - YOU DONT KNOW SITUATION AT TIME OF CALL
Jeremy may just ring the Foakes's and tell them to go over. Something Neville could do and may consider a better option.  SEE ABOVE

Neville calling someone would antagonise Sheila. She may even brutally beat someone. _ HE MAY NOT HAVE CONSIDERED THAT OR KNOWN SHE WAS LISTENING - PERHAPS YOU HAVE HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD  NB MADE A MISTAKE

Neville could call the Foakes's. Who were two adults living at WHF.  YOU SAID THAT BEFORE 

There was no time to make any calls if Sheila had 'gone' crazy with a gun.  _ YOU ARE INTEPRETING SOMEONE ELSES WORDS - WE DONT KNOW WHAT HE MEANT

When there was time to make a call Neville had the option of restraining Sheila. Getting June to assist. SEE ABOVE

There was no time to wait for someone to arrive. Sheila had 'gone 'crazy'. SEE ABOVE

Relations between the two were poor and getting worse.   After Jeremy robbed the caravan site and spent the money. YOU DONT KNOW THAT FOR A FACT - ASSUMPTION

Neville would be prepared to take a torso bullet in order to restrain Sheila. Knowing the gun was for shooting vermin/rabbits and a torso shot would not kill him.  YES OF COURSE HE WOULD

The kitchen phone was downstairs. Meaning everyone would be left upstairs. Unless Sheila had accompanied him downstairs.  - YES WE DONT KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

If the answering machine was switched off, as his supporters claim. Jeremy would not hear his downstairs phone. If his bedroom door was shut.  -THAT MAY BE YOUR ASSUMPTION AND NOT A FACT - BET IT IS.

Neville was bigger and stronger than Jeremy and the head of the family. SEE ABOVE

Sheila would have to let Neville open the door when Jeremy arrives. Or Neville would have to put himself in danger by getting to the front door against Sheila's wishes.  ASSUMPTION

Sheila is more likely to fire bullets if more people start pressurising her and arriving on the scene.  POSSIBLE - SEE ABOVE

Neville would be aware that he was the person who always had most success in calming down an excited Sheila. If he couldn't, then someone who thought Sheila was a 'looney' certainly could not. - WE DONT KNNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN EVERY EPISODE SHE HAD SO THIS IS ASSUMPTION

Jeremy was not known to be especially brave. So may refuse to go anywhere near the inside of WHF. Preferring to stay 50 yards from the entrance.  This is what happened.  YES THE CALL COULD HAVE BEEN A MISTAKE - DOES NOT MEAN IT DID NOT HAPPEN

Neville would be implicating his son if there were any injuries or fatalities. As Jeremy would be first on the scene and first witness. This is what happened. I Don't THINK NB WAS THINKING THAT FAR AHEAD AND I DONT THINK HE THOUGHT SHE WOULD ACTUALLY FIRE THE GUN.

Jeremy was not known for being especially brave. So may have just phoned the police. Neville had either already done this. Or wanted to keep things private. Jeremy did in fact call the police.  SEE PREVIOUS COMMENTS - AGAIN!

It is not standard practice to call relations on the phone at 3am when you're life is in danger. There are no other examples of this happening. - SO RIDICULOUS I A NOT GOING TO DISCUSS -


Do people believe after 29 years,  it is time for closure on this issue ? NO NO NO NO

ENOUGH DISCUSSION FOR YOU ?

DONT ACCUSE US OF NOT DICUSSING .

BET I HAVE JUST WASTED MY TIME AGAIN

[Adam]

Thank you Jan.

I knew Jeremy's other supporters would try to change the subject, ignore the issue or try to deflect the focus on me.

But I was very surprised that you did not get straight on you're fire engine and fire fight the 40 reasons.  But better late than never.

A bit abrupt putting one word answers to valid points Not sure that is really debating or convincing doubters. Supporters really have to suspend a lot of common sense to convince themselves Neville called . Doubters just laugh at the suggestion.

Trying to dismiss the issue & act like it's wasting you're time will not work. It is an important issue that even the judge thought was mysterious. The 40 reasons have not been discussed before. Although I did create a thread on what Sheila was doing when Neville phoned. Most people refusing to answer.

Like it or not, most people think it is ridiculous to suggest Neville made the call. If he didn't then Bamber is guilty.

Why do you think Neville phoned Jeremy after Sheila had 'got the gun and gone crazy' ?

[lookout]

 Jeremy's calmer than you are. What's up,guilty conscience ? It's YOU who's losing it,no-one else !

[Jan]

Thank you Jan.

I knew Jeremy's other supporters would try to change the subject, ignore the issue or try to deflect the focus on me.

But I was very surprised that you did not get straight on you're fire engine and fire fight the 40 reasons.  But better late than never.

A bit abrupt putting one word answers to valid points Not sure that is really debating or convincing doubters. Supporters really have to suspend a lot of common sense to convince themselves Neville called . Doubters just laugh at the suggestion.

Trying to dismiss the issue & act like it's wasting you're time will not work. It is an important issue that even the judge thought was mysterious. The 40 reasons have not been discussed before. Although I did create a thread on what Sheila was doing when Neville phoned. Most people refusing to answer.

Like it or not, most people think it is ridiculous to suggest Neville made the call. If he didn't then Bamber is guilty.

Why do you think Neville phoned Jeremy after Sheila had 'got the gun and gone crazy' ?

Well after all that effort I made , your sarcastic dismissive post not acknowledging any of my points proves:

1) you are not interested in discussion at all
2) I was right in the first place and answering your posts is a complete waste of time


Scipio - you were wrong .

[Mr. Gee]

This is a perfect example of how biased and irraitonal you are.

Not a single Jeremy supporter is willing to actually discuss the points raised by Adam let alone attempt to debate/refute the points.

Instead you just ignore them and make the unsupported statement it is obvious why Nevill would call Jeremy.

It is not obvious to a rational person which is one of the reasons why the jury chose not to believe the call never happened and why unbiased people who look at the case rationally don't believe it.

You even quit the board (returnig as I predicted though) because you admitted that Sheila would not have even known how to "charge" the rifle.

The allegation is she was there in the kitchen with him and grabbed the weapon.  He would have seen as plain as day she didn't charge it and thus that it could not have harmed him if she actually grabbed the gun in his presence as Jeremy supporters claim.

If she didn't grab it in his presence and had to get it from the closet then went and woke up Nevill and June in their bedroom then obviously  the call never happened because she would have opened fire then and there not have gone to the kitchen with Nevill and June to stay in bed sleeping.

More significantly though we know for a fact SHeila didn't load or fire the weapon nor did she beat anyone because the physical evidence establishes this.  Since she never loaded or fired the weapon and was killed by someone else that means she didn't threaten Nevill with a gun or run around crazy so Nevill had no reaosn to call Jeremy claiming she did.  Jeremy supporters choose the evidence that proves she didn't kill anyone including herself but the jury didn't.

Jeremy supporters like to ignore the foundation of our legal system which is the concept of reasonableness.  Someone is to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.  What reasonableness enails is looking at the evidence and deciding what is reasonably likely to have occurred based thereupon.

It is reasonably likely for Nevill to call Jeremy period for help?  No because of the things Adam mentions plus the fact SHeila did not do anything to warrant him calling plus considerable evidence Jeremy framed Sheila including Julie's testimony which included the assertion he told her in advance he planned to claim he received a call from WHF to establish his alibi. Furtherore Jeremy's actions demonstrate he didn't receive such a call because someone reciving such a clal would rush over or immediately dial 999. He called Julie then lied and falsely claimed he called police before Julie because he knew if he told the truth he called Julie first then they would know he was lying about receiving a call from Nevill.

Why would Nevill need Jeremy to help talk Sheila down?  As Adam pointed out Jeremy would have made her more angry not have helped calm her down. Indeed, Jeremy told police this when they asked if he would be of help talking her down with them.

Why would Nevill need Jeremy to help disarm her?  Nevill was bigger and stronger than Jeremy so Jeremy didn't have some physical ability Nevill lacked.

Moreover, Nevill would have had both the need and opportunity to disarm her.  Nevill was there at the scene thus able to ambush her. Jeremy would take 15-20 minutes to arrive why would Nevill decide it is ok to wait for Jeremy if he were so scared/  He would take action himself.

If too scared to act himself then he would call 999.

If too scared to take her on barehanded even though she didn't even know how to charge the wepaon or know she needed to charge the weapon, he could have armed himself. The kitchen had knives, guns and other potentional weapons. He was too scared to get a weapon and wanted Jeremy to come instead and put his life on the line to save them?  Ludicrous if so scared he would have called 999.

Indeed Nevill would nto have even expect Jeremy to answer.  Jeremy's answering machine woudl pick up before Jeremy could wake up, get out of bed and walke down the stairs to answer his phone if it even woke him up.  Jeremy's claim he was sleeping like a log but managed to answer the phone before the answering machine picked up is not credible.

Nor is Jeremy's fairytale about getting the gun out to shoot rabbits and leaving it and the bullets out credible, he made up this tale quite obviously and staged the bullets after the murders.  He even left too many bullets for his story to have been true. 

One has to be totally irrational or too biased to be interested in accepting the truth to overlook all the evidence tha tproves no call happened. If you want to be that biased be my guest but calling people names for being rational instea dof like you makes you look even worse.

I did address his points with one answer. The questions he asks are just his opinion. I didn't need to waste my words addressing ALL of his points. You have not accepted my anser to him because of your own insane bias. I am afraid that your mind is closed anyone's opinion but your own. This you have proved by dismissing the whole of Adam's one thread.

[scipio_usmc]

ENOUGH DISCUSSION FOR YOU ?

DONT ACCUSE US OF NOT DICUSSING .

BET I HAVE JUST WASTED MY TIME AGAIN

I raised more than Adam and mine are all ied together so much more important to address. At any rate your responses didn't acocmplish much and some were silly.

For instance there is no evidence to sugggest Nevill actually called Jeremy so your claim that it is a fact Jeremy answered and this negates the points raised is downright stupid. 

But many of the actual questions are looking at it from Nevill's point of view not necessarily what actually happened.  It was asking why Nevill would expect Jeremy to be able to answer.  Your silly claim that Jeremy did answer (which he obviously didn't because no call was actually made) doesn't really deal with how Nevill would perceive things.

I love this too, "YOU DONT KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WAS MEANT BY THOSE WORDS AT THAT TIME IS SUBJECTIVE"  so you suggest maybe things were nto so worrysome and that is why Nevill would not have any urgency to disarm Sheila or attempt to enlist June to help and instead call Jeremy.  Your response makes no sense at all.

All in all your responses show you don't want to look at it rationally and committed a major blunder in alleging Nevill definitely called and Jeremy definitely answered.  That really dashes your claims of being objective and puts you solidly in the pro Jeremy camp.

If you want to make a serious effort at it try addressing the issues I raised which help establish the call never happened.   

[Adam]

Here are the 40 reasons why Neville would not call Jeremy. Discussed in the 'Song for Jeremy' thread.

Jan bravely (eventually) tackled them. Sadly her answers were flippant and short. As if she was doing me a big favour and it is not an important issue. Sadly it is.

There is a double problem with the 'mysterious' call.

1:

No one can say what Sheila was doing when Neville called.

2:

There are 40 reasons why he would not call.