The relatives framing Jeremy in two days. Possible ?

[Adam]

Stan Jones gave Ann Eaton the keys to WHF. This was to do some cleaning.

Ann Eaton and other relatives attended WHF. Finding a silencer hidden away in the gun cupboard. Basil Cock & Barbara Wilson were also present. The silencer had blood & paint on according to the relatives.

The silencer was handed to Stan Jones within two days. 

In court it was never suggested the silencer was contaminated or was unsafe evidence. Jeremy suggested this decades later. Claiming his surviving family framed him. The relatives did not do this for money. Jeremys own Youtube video said they were already rich with no reason to lie. They also had no criminal record as far as I know.

If the silencer did not have blood & paint on, the relatives, in two days had to -

1: Decide in unison to attempt to frame Jeremy. All be confident in each other that no one will crack under pressure. They all had to agree to commit a serious crime & risk criminal charges.

2: Find out about back splatter.

3: Find out if any shots were contact shots which would produce back splatter.

4: Find out Sheila's, June's and Neville's blood type.

5: Find out if the rifle end had blood on it. Meaning a silencer was not used & they could not frame Jeremy.

6: Get blood Sheila's, June's and Neville's blood.  Assisting in getting a conviction. 

7: Find out how to effectivly & realistically put the correct blood into the silencer baffles.

8: Get the right equipment to convincingly transfer the found blood into the silencer.

9:  Go back to WHF and effectivly put paint onto the silencer.

10: Find out that the rifle with the silencer on was too long for Sheila.

11: None of them retract from their statements and attempt to frame Jeremy.



Do people believe this was doable in two days ?

[Caroline]

Stan Jones gave Ann Eaton the keys to WHF. This was to do some cleaning.

Ann Eaton and other relatives attended WHF. Finding a silencer hidden away in the gun cupboard. Basil Cock & Barbara Wilson were also present. The silencer had blood & paint on according to the relatives.

The silencer was handed to Stan Jones within two days. 

In court it was never suggested the silencer was contaminated or was unsafe evidence. Jeremy suggested this decades later. Claiming his surviving family framed him. The relatives did not do this for money. Jeremys own Youtube video said they were already rich with no reason to lie. They also had no criminal record as far as I know.

If the silencer did not have blood & paint on, the relatives, in two days had to -

1: Decide in unison to attempt to frame Jeremy. All be confident in each other that no one will crack under pressure. They all had to agree to commit a serious crime & risk criminal charges.

2: Find out about back splatter.

3: Find out if any shots were contact shots which would produce back splatter.

4: Find out Sheila's blood type.

5: Find out if the rifle end had blood on it. Meaning a silencer was not used & they could not frame Jeremy.

6: Get blood which is very close to Sheilas. Assisting in getting a conviction. 

7: Find out how to effectivly & realistically put the correct blood into the silencer baffles.

8: Get the right equipment to transfer the found blood into the silencer.

9:  Go back to WHF and effectivly put paint onto the silencer.



Do people believe this was doable in two days ?

Of course not, but it wasn't done in two days!!

[scipio_usmc]

Of course not, but it wasn't done in two days!!

The problem for Jeremy is that ther eis no evidence to establish it was done at all and he needed to establish at trial that there was a reaosnable probability that the blood was planted.

Who would even bother planting the paint if they had planted the blood anyway?  The paint merely establishes the suppressor was attached in the kitchen but so does the fact the ceiling lampshade was broken. his doesn't establish it was attached when Sheila was shot the blood does so it is the key.  Planting paint evidence would make no sense if one planted blood and recongized the significance.

The family could not do it alone anyway.  Blood would definitely have been in the barrel of the rifle if the suppressor were not used.  Sometimes back spatter is eliminated when multiple bullets are fired after such is deposited.  There were no more bullets fired though and the final shot would have resulted in spatter hence the trial testimony that if the blood had not been in the suppressor then it would have been in the rifle.

So in addition to planting blood in the suppressor, blood found in the rifle had to be eliminated by police or the police lab.

A grand coonspracy is necessary and while such grand conspiracy is theoretically possible there is not a shred of evidence to establish it happened.  More than a theoretical possibility is needed to establish a reasonable likelihood.   

     

[grahameb]

Because of the very dodgy character of the silencer evidence it cannot and should not have been used as evidence at all. As soon as it left for Ann Eatons house anything could have happened to it. It doesn't necessarily mean that they consciously went about to frame him. But it does and should have excluded the silencer as evidence because of potential contamination. I simply cannot understand why certain intelligent people cannot see that? I seems as if their prejudice against Bamber is so great that they are blind to the obvious. The fact that the judge let it stand as evidence is neither here nor there. In my opinion and in the opinion of experts in the Law the judge was wrong in doing so. You must by pass all the so called blood evidence. Because the silencer should not have been used as evidence in the first place.

[Caroline]

The problem for Jeremy is that ther eis no evidence to establish it was done at all and he needed to establish at trial that there was a reaosnable probability that the blood was planted.

Who would even bother planting the paint if they had planted the blood anyway?  The paint merely establishes the suppressor was attached in the kitchen but so does the fact the ceiling lampshade was broken. his doesn't establish it was attached when Sheila was shot the blood does so it is the key.  Planting paint evidence would make no sense if one planted blood and recongized the significance.

The family could not do it alone anyway.  Blood would definitely have been in the barrel of the rifle if the suppressor were not used.  Sometimes back spatter is eliminated when multiple bullets are fired after such is deposited.  There were no more bullets fired though and the final shot would have resulted in spatter hence the trial testimony that if the blood had not been in the suppressor then it would have been in the rifle.

So in addition to planting blood in the suppressor, blood found in the rifle had to be eliminated by police or the police lab.

A grand coonspracy is necessary and while such grand conspiracy is theoretically possible there is not a shred of evidence to establish it happened.  More than a theoretical possibility is needed to establish a reasonable likelihood.   

   

The blood could 'easily have been planted but I don't suggest it was done by the relatives. Remember, it was only tested for 'type' back then and linked to Sheila because of the enzyme AK1. Later when it was tested for DNA - they didn't find Sheila's DNA and the DNA that they did find (Junes) could have got their via contamination.

The paint I guess was simply 'more is more'.

It's not a given that backspatter had to have occurred it's not a law just a possibility.

I didn't say the family did anything alone, I don't believe they did.

[lookout]

Because of the very dodgy character of the silencer evidence it cannot and should not have been used as evidence at all. As soon as it left for Ann Eatons house anything could have happened to it. It doesn't necessarily mean that they consciously went about to frame him. But it does and should have excluded the silencer as evidence because of potential contamination. I simply cannot understand why certain intelligent people cannot see that? I seems as if their prejudice against Bamber is so great that they are blind to the obvious. The fact that the judge let it stand as evidence is neither here nor there. In my opinion and in the opinion of experts in the Law the judge was wrong in doing so. You must by pass all the so called blood evidence. Because the silencer should not have been used as evidence in the first place.

I agree entirely, Grahame.

[nugnug]

Stan Jones gave Ann Eaton the keys to WHF. This was to do some cleaning.

Ann Eaton and other relatives attended WHF. Finding a silencer hidden away in the gun cupboard. Basil Cock & Barbara Wilson were also present. The silencer had blood & paint on according to the relatives.

The silencer was handed to Stan Jones within two days. 

In court it was never suggested the silencer was contaminated or was unsafe evidence. Jeremy suggested this decades later. Claiming his surviving family framed him. The relatives did not do this for money. Jeremys own Youtube video said they were already rich with no reason to lie. They also had no criminal record as far as I know.

If the silencer did not have blood & paint on, the relatives, in two days had to -

1: Decide in unison to attempt to frame Jeremy. All be confident in each other that no one will crack under pressure. They all had to agree to commit a serious crime & risk criminal charges.

2: Find out about back splatter.

3: Find out if any shots were contact shots which would produce back splatter.

4: Find out Sheila's blood type.

5: Find out if the rifle end had blood on it. Meaning a silencer was not used & they could not frame Jeremy.

6: Get blood which is very close to Sheilas. Assisting in getting a conviction. 

7: Find out how to effectivly & realistically put the correct blood into the silencer baffles.

8: Get the right equipment to transfer the found blood into the silencer.

9:  Go back to WHF and effectivly put paint onto the silencer.



Do people believe this was doable in two days ?

yes easily your forgetting they had sheilas blood stained underwear so they dident need to know her blood type.

[Jane]

Scorpio, just in case you don't know the background to a possible framing of Jeremy by the relatives, allow me to tell you.

RWB was married to the eldest Speakman sister with whom he had two (biological) children some 8-10 years older than the two (adopted) Bamber children. Whilst the Boutflours weren't exactly impoverished, it was Nevill who, through his own family, held the real wealth, making it possible for him to lend them money when the necessity arose. It's more than likely that after several years of childless marriage, RWB saw the Bamber money eventually finding it's way to his own branch of the family, also farmers. I think the advent of the Bamber children put paid to that fantasy and for that reason, he liked neither of them, especially Jeremy, the HEIR. I imagine he bought his children up hearing that if it wasn't for those two, everything your aunt and uncle have would come to you. They actually tell us very clearly in their witness statements and diaries what they think  of Jeremy and Sheila. It didn't take much intelligence for them to work out that as Jeremy was the one remaining member of the family, not only would he get most of the Bamber wealth, he'd also own their outstanding debts. It was VERY convenient for them that Jeremy was convicted and I feel certain YOU would have approved of RWB telling the jury that, should Jeremy be convicted, he wasn't a beneficiary of the estate but omitting to say his wife WAS.

[Jan]

Adam - over and over again you have been shown documents from the police which you Choose to ignore .

 So let me remind you :

That's an interesting interpretation and one that is not entirely unreasonable.  However, just to put things in perspective regarding the silencer:

7th August:
WHF Incident occurs.

9th August  Also see 16th & 17th September near bottom
DS Neil Davison tests a silencer for finger prints. [Davidson was the exhibits officer.  During COLP interviewing, Davidson informed a Superintendent McKay that he was not aware the family had found a silencer.  He was also questioned by COLP about 'the second silencer'].

10th September:
Pargeter recounts to police about his earlier advice to David Boutflour, that David 'return' the silencer to police after having discovered some time after 10th August from David him self, that the silencer had been 'returned' to the family (presumably by police).

11th September:
Police telephone message detailed from David Boutflour, stating he has found silencer with blood on it (and) silencer was in cardboard box in downstairs office.

11th September:
Police action report details a DC Oakley as attending Ann Eaton’s house. It states that he picked up (exhibit) AE/1 and ‘a silencer,’ which he then referred to SOCO DCI Wright, based at Chelmsford Police Station. [It was asserted at trial in 1986 that the silencer was handed to an Essex Police Officer, DS Jones, on 12th August 1985 by Ann Eaton].
 
11th September:
DC 769 Oakey (different from above officer) visited WHF and collected telescopic sights DRB/2 and Eley Bullets DRB/3. Oakley made his statement about this on 25th October.  [So EP sent two separate officers to WHF, one called Oakley and one called Oakey, on the same day 11th Sept., to collect different exhibits, all of which are alleged to have been found in gun cupboard over one month earlier on 10th Aug].

12th September:
David Boutflour in his statement says he "informed the police of the finding of the telescopic sight and sound moderator".

12th September:
Anne Eaton in her statement mentions (for the first time) that a silencer had been found (one month earlier) on August 10th by David Boutflour. [Ann Eaton’s reply during COLP questioning:  “The only silencer found to my knowledge was the one found by my brother David. There never has been any other silencer found at White House Farm”].

16th September:
ACC Simpson issues the following statement to The Essex gazette, which was then retracted:
‘Although a silencer was found shortly after police broke into the house, a few hours after the killings on 7th August 1985, it was not until after enquiries were reopened that this was regarded as significant,’

17th September:
ACC Simpson issues the following statement to The Mirror, which was then retracted:
‘A heavily bloodstained silencer was found by the police hours after the gruesome massacre,’ in addition, ‘Police discovered a blood stained gun silencer at the farm on the day of the massacre.’




SO ADAM - Why are you saying two days?

Also where is the proof that the sound moderator was actually used at all?

[nugnug]

so it was actully a fair bit more then 2 days then.

mind you in my opinion 2 days would of been plenty of time anyway.

[Adam]

The silencer was found on the 11th August. It was handed in prior to the 14th August.

Source Roger Wilkes book.

Proof it was used. It had Sheilas blood on. Or was it Neville & June's ? Meaning Sheila took the silencer off and put it neatly away. While in a mad rage and prior to killing herself.

The fact that it is human blood at all is important. How an earth did human blood get so deep into the baffles ? Oh yes the relatives sprayed it there.

[nugnug]

Adam - over and over again you have been shown documents from the police which you Choose to ignore .

 So let me remind you :

That's an interesting interpretation and one that is not entirely unreasonable.  However, just to put things in perspective regarding the silencer:

7th August:
WHF Incident occurs.

well why let facts get in the way of a good theory.

9th August  Also see 16th & 17th September near bottom
DS Neil Davison tests a silencer for finger prints. [Davidson was the exhibits officer.  During COLP interviewing, Davidson informed a Superintendent McKay that he was not aware the family had found a silencer.  He was also questioned by COLP about 'the second silencer'].

10th September:
Pargeter recounts to police about his earlier advice to David Boutflour, that David 'return' the silencer to police after having discovered some time after 10th August from David him self, that the silencer had been 'returned' to the family (presumably by police).

11th September:
Police telephone message detailed from David Boutflour, stating he has found silencer with blood on it (and) silencer was in cardboard box in downstairs office.

11th September:
Police action report details a DC Oakley as attending Ann Eaton’s house. It states that he picked up (exhibit) AE/1 and ‘a silencer,’ which he then referred to SOCO DCI Wright, based at Chelmsford Police Station. [It was asserted at trial in 1986 that the silencer was handed to an Essex Police Officer, DS Jones, on 12th August 1985 by Ann Eaton].
 
11th September:
DC 769 Oakey (different from above officer) visited WHF and collected telescopic sights DRB/2 and Eley Bullets DRB/3. Oakley made his statement about this on 25th October.  [So EP sent two separate officers to WHF, one called Oakley and one called Oakey, on the same day 11th Sept., to collect different exhibits, all of which are alleged to have been found in gun cupboard over one month earlier on 10th Aug].

12th September:
David Boutflour in his statement says he "informed the police of the finding of the telescopic sight and sound moderator".

12th September:
Anne Eaton in her statement mentions (for the first time) that a silencer had been found (one month earlier) on August 10th by David Boutflour. [Ann Eaton’s reply during COLP questioning:  “The only silencer found to my knowledge was the one found by my brother David. There never has been any other silencer found at White House Farm”].

16th September:
ACC Simpson issues the following statement to The Essex gazette, which was then retracted:
‘Although a silencer was found shortly after police broke into the house, a few hours after the killings on 7th August 1985, it was not until after enquiries were reopened that this was regarded as significant,’

17th September:
ACC Simpson issues the following statement to The Mirror, which was then retracted:
‘A heavily bloodstained silencer was found by the police hours after the gruesome massacre,’ in addition, ‘Police discovered a blood stained gun silencer at the farm on the day of the massacre.’




SO ADAM - Why are you saying two days?

Also where is the proof that the sound moderator was actually used at all?

well why let facts get in the way of a good theory.

[Jan]

The silencer was found on the 11th August. It was handed in prior to the 14th August.

Source Roger Wilkes book.

Proof it was used. It had Sheilas blood on. Or was it Neville & June's ? Meaning Sheila took the silencer off and put it neatly away. While in a mad rage and prior to killing herself.

The fact that it is human blood at all is important. How an earth did human blood get so deep into the baffles ? Oh yes the relatives sprayed it there.

Thanks Adam I never thought of that , must remember that one. 

That's really clever

[nugnug]

The silencer was found on the 11th August. It was handed in prior to the 14th August.

Source Roger Wilkes book.

Proof it was used. It had Sheilas blood on. Or was it Neville & June's ? Meaning Sheila took the silencer off and put it neatly away. While in a mad rage and prior to killing herself.

The fact that it is human blood at all is important. How an earth did human blood get so deep into the baffles ? Oh yes the relatives sprayed it there.

seeing as they took it apart they could of put it as deep as they liked.

they would have no trouble finding sheilas blood ann eaton had taken sheilas blood stained undwear for reasons she never fully explianed.

[Caroline]

The silencer was found on the 11th August. It was handed in prior to the 14th August.

Source Roger Wilkes book.

Proof it was used. It had Sheilas blood on. Or was it Neville & June's ? Meaning Sheila took the silencer off and put it neatly away. While in a mad rage and prior to killing herself.

The fact that it is human blood at all is important. How an earth did human blood get so deep into the baffles ? Oh yes the relatives sprayed it there.

Errrrm, I don't think anyone other than Scipio has suggested that - other than you just now.