Author Topic: Beyond reasonable doubt.  (Read 9509 times)

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Offline Jan

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2014, 06:24:PM »
I have asked the question before - if there was an immunity offered for those people in the know to come forward and let the truth out - do you think it would happen?

Offline Roch

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2014, 06:27:PM »
I have asked the question before - if there was an immunity offered for those people in the know to come forward and let the truth out - do you think it would happen?

Some people allege that an immunity is already in place.  So maybe there's no incentive for any individuals to break up the cabal?

Offline susan

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2014, 06:31:PM »
jansus I think if people were offered immunity and a guarantee their pensions would not be affected they may do but then again don't think they would do it voluntary as too many involved now and what an effect it would have on the Justice system think evidence to incriminate people would have to be found.  We all know most of it was burnt but some will have got away and waiting to be found.  Let us hope so.

Offline Reader

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2014, 07:30:PM »
The jurors found him guilty on the evidence before them. Only they can find him not guilty now.
That's not how our legal system works. However, the jurors are allowed to give their current opinions. They are not allowed, except in special circumstances, to disclose the details of what went on in the jury room.

HOW LIKELY IS IT THAT THE SILENCER WAS CONTAMINATED BY ACCIDENT?
LCN DNA analysis is extremely sensitive - it can obtain a DNA profile using a minute quantity of human tissue (such as skin cell dust).

Offline Jan

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2014, 07:54:PM »
If the silencer had been found on the day and still at the scene then of course it should have been considered. But it was removed from the scene - and we are not sure of the true trail or environment it ( or multiple silencers ) followed .

The people who found it also were at the time cleaning the crime scene and apparently transported some of SC bloodied clothes away from the scene ( not sure what day that was) and yet they did not hand those over?

Cross contamination was a distinct possibility. Did not Barry George get let off on a similar scenario?

Offline marchend

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2014, 08:34:PM »
Due process will never free Bamber in a million years.  So why use a due process mindset when attempting to free Bamber?
Well,I would suggest a change of mindset,looking from a different angle,may not be a bad idea? What can possibly be the worst outcome?

So the jurors can give their opinion based on their current views, as long as they don't discuss jury room discussions. Perfect for the requirements I forwarded. Now. How do you find the jury?  Asking the court, " can you tell me the names of the bamber jury won't work,IMO,you've got to find them through other means.
What are the other means?

Offline Jane

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2014, 08:44:PM »
Due process will never free Bamber in a million years.  So why use a due process mindset when attempting to free Bamber?
Well,I would suggest a change of mindset,looking from a different angle,may not be a bad idea? What can possibly be the worst outcome?

So the jurors can give their opinion based on their current views, as long as they don't discuss jury room discussions. Perfect for the requirements I forwarded. Now. How do you find the jury?  Asking the court, " can you tell me the names of the bamber jury won't work,IMO,you've got to find them through other means.
What are the other means?



Under these circumstances we can't afford to be proud, so will you tell us, please :)

Offline susan

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2014, 08:47:PM »
April Patti would be excellent at finding them she is great at that type of thing must get her on the case.  Come back Pattl we need you but you will have to be cheap as we have no funds ;D ;D ;D

Offline grahameb

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2014, 08:49:PM »
Due process will never free Bamber in a million years.  So why use a due process mindset when attempting to free Bamber?
Well,I would suggest a change of mindset,looking from a different angle,may not be a bad idea? What can possibly be the worst outcome?

So the jurors can give their opinion based on their current views, as long as they don't discuss jury room discussions. Perfect for the requirements I forwarded. Now. How do you find the jury?  Asking the court, " can you tell me the names of the bamber jury won't work,IMO,you've got to find them through other means.
What are the other means?
You get the rope. I'll get the 4x4. We'll sping him tomorrow. ;D

Offline Jane

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2014, 08:50:PM »
April Patti would be excellent at finding them she is great at that type of thing must get her on the case.  Come back Pattl we need you but you will have to be cheap as we have no funds ;D ;D ;D




BRILLIANT idea. Well done you, Susan ;D ;D ;D

Offline Martin

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2014, 08:43:AM »
There needs to be a defence based rough justice style documentary which allows some room for the prosecution argument and for prosecution witness / police commentary that is evidence related as opposed to opinion related.   What would happen is that the police would struggle to answer such points, possibly refuse to comment.  The docu would then allow the public to form an opinion on the lack of response from the police, which is likely to be negative / sceptical towards the police.  There is absolutely no way the relatives would cooperate in answering difficult evidence related questions.  They would more likely attempt to prevent the programme from happening, which would and should be interpreted as an indicator of collusion with the police stance.

Personally I believe that Jeremy's higher profile supporters should cut to the chase and publicly suggest that the silencer is a deliberately fabricated exhibit as opposed to an accidentially contaminated exhibit.

The trouble is, lawyers put their own respectable position first. Sollecito’s lawyers apparently advised him to return to Italy. Well, I suppose you would expect lawyers to advise their client to turn up. But look where it’s got him!

Bamber’s defence have allowed the CCRC to get away with rejecting scientific evidence without giving an explanation. In fact, by not disclosing the response to a submission they have helped cover up it's lack of logic. A few hints here and there does not allow an expert to comment. The guilters can always just say  "But you haven't seen it!" The effect is that the scientific community is being kept out of the case.

Saying that photographic evidence is unreliable is just bunkum. That wasn’t the opinion of the pathologists themselves.

To accuse them of misconduct is just not the way lawyers who anticipate future employment are likely to operate. What I suggest is that a group of Bamber's supporters prepare the script of such a documentary with people on this forum making suggestions as to what they would like to see put in it. Certain facts stand out

You can prove actual innocence.

Pathologists and ballistics experts invited to take part would unequivocally support the view that photographs of the victims prove certain things:

1 That Sheila’s time of death was hours later than that of the other victims, giving Jeremy a solid alibi.

2 That the silencer was not on the rifle when Sheila was shot

3 That Nevill Bamber’s body must have already been in rigor mortis when his head was put in the coal bucket, implying that he must have died hours before.

There are certain things which can be proven or virtually proven such as

1 That Julie Mugford got the description of Sheila on the bed with the bible on her chest from Ann Eaton and not from Jeremy. Who but a halfwit would believe that it was just a coincidence that Jeremy made up the same description when telling the story
of Matthew McDonald’s involvement? 

2 That the silencer evidence was deliberately faked as corroboration in support of Julie Mugford’s testimony.

3 That two bodies were found on entry

4 That Nevill Bamber phoned the police

I’m pretty sure that, otherwise, a “respectable” documentary made in the future would not include most of those things.

Treat the case as a historical subject.

Let the specialists have their say on television as they would on some other subject like Scott’s expedition to the Antarctic .

What I suggest is a Timewatch style documentary where experts give their professional opinion on the evidence and the CCRC are frankly accused of judicial misconduct for rejecting evidence without giving an explanation worthy of the name.

Bamber’s lawyers will never make such an accusation and will probably oppose the idea saying that it will only be counter productive, making the CCRC even less sympathetic to Jeremy. They would say that a more professional approach is required, one which has proven in the past to be completely ineffective.

My advice is to stick with american experts who don’t know much about the case and who are impartial and who can’t be got at.

People who hear them come to conclusions which rule out Jeremy as a suspect will tell others. Word gets around.

Here’s an example of what I think is required.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wNSdqys9Tc



There can be a big gulf between professional opinion and popular opinion, but it’s not all that difficult to get the scientific view across to the general public. If people get to know that the pathologists view rules out Jeremy, some of them will believe it.

Not everyone is stupid.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 09:09:AM by Martin »

Offline Jane

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2014, 09:08:AM »
Martin, MANY thanks for your, as usual, BRILLIANT post. Your input is invaluable. The challenge you've set us, whilst daunting, might not be beyond the realms of possibility once it's broken down into doable components. You've certainly provided food for thought.

Offline Martin

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2014, 09:13:AM »
Martin, MANY thanks for your, as usual, BRILLIANT post. Your input is invaluable. The challenge you've set us, whilst daunting, might not be beyond the realms of possibility once it's broken down into doable components. You've certainly provided food for thought.

Thanks, April. It will be interesting to see what ideas people have. Incidentally, I'm not really finding fault with the lawyers. What I am saying is that you can't really expect lawyers to do otherwise.  If evidence is rejected at Appeal it can't be used again, so the lawyers can only try to find something else. But a historian need not bother with that consideration.

I think Bamber needs to go straight to the public via the scientific community. The legal position is never the last word.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 09:41:AM by Martin »

Offline grahameb

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2014, 09:47:AM »
If the silencer had been found on the day and still at the scene then of course it should have been considered. But it was removed from the scene - and we are not sure of the true trail or environment it ( or multiple silencers ) followed .

The people who found it also were at the time cleaning the crime scene and apparently transported some of SC bloodied clothes away from the scene ( not sure what day that was) and yet they did not hand those over?

Cross contamination was a distinct possibility. Did not Barry George get let off on a similar scenario?
They were actually looking for clues to see how Bamber did the crime. In fact I believe I read somewhere that the police asked them to keep an eye out for anything out of the ordinary. But I can't be sure of that?

Offline grahameb

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Re: Beyond reasonable doubt.
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2014, 09:50:AM »
If the silencer had been found on the day and still at the scene then of course it should have been considered. But it was removed from the scene - and we are not sure of the true trail or environment it ( or multiple silencers ) followed .

The people who found it also were at the time cleaning the crime scene and apparently transported some of SC bloodied clothes away from the scene ( not sure what day that was) and yet they did not hand those over?

Cross contamination was a distinct possibility. Did not Barry George get let off on a similar scenario?
The very fact that it had been removed from the scene, no matter how carefully it may have been handled it should have been counted as being contaminated. This is one reason why I say that Bamber did not have a fair trial and that was down to the judge personally. He was wrong. What on earth was he thinking?