Raid team were intent on shooting Sheila on sight upon entering whf...

[Caroline]

It's not incompatible for Jeremy to have led Sheila into the master bedroom whilst she was carrying a bible,to have shot her in the neck whilst one of her hands was holding this bible and for Sheila's blood to have got onto the bible whilst she involuntarily touched her neck with the other hand..

No, just totally unbelievable!!

[mike tesko]

Everyone would do well, to consider what was inside DCI 'Taff' Jones mind when he got to the scene at about 9.05am, on the morning of the shootings. He states that en route to the scene (whf), and indeed upon arrival there, that he was unaware that anybody had been shot at all. He thought he was going to a siege where a young deranged woman armed with a firearm, was holding other members of her family, including two small children hostage...

[mike tesko]

Everyone would do well, to consider what was inside DCI 'Taff' Jones mind when he got to the scene at about 9.05am, on the morning of the shootings. He states that en route to the scene (whf), and indeed upon arrival there, that he was unaware that anybody had been shot at all. He thought he was going to a siege where a young deranged woman armed with a firearm, was holding other members of her family, including two small children hostage...

Here was the to be "head of the investigation", heading to the scene, and arriving there, not knowing that anyone had been shot at all, arriving at the scene at about 9.05am. This is the same DCI Jones who was based at Witham police station, a senior officer who had left Witham police station to go to the incident, having been told a crazed young woman in possession of a loaded gun was running amok, holding people hostage, including her own two little children...

Witham police station is about 12.5 miles from whf, so if we say DCI 'Jones left Witham police station about half an hour before his arrival at the scene (9.05am), by 8.35am surely those who were responsible for sending him to the scene would have known that five dead bodies had been found inside the farmhouse, from as early as 8:10am:-

[maggie]

Here was the to be "head of the investigation", heading to the scene, and arriving there, not knowing that anyone had been shot at all, arriving at the scene at about 9.05am. This is the same DCI Jones who was based at Witham police station, a senior officer who had left Witham police station to go to the incident, having been told a crazed young woman in possession of a loaded gun was running amok, holding people hostage, including her own two little children...
Witham police station is about 12.5 miles from whf, so if we say DCI 'Jones left Witham police station about half an hour before his arrival at the scene (9.05am), by 8.35am surely those who were responsible for sending him to the scene would have known that five dead bodies had been found inside the farmhouse from as early as 8:10am:-

Hi Mike, if that was the case it's has to be reasonable to assume that the belief at Witham at around 8.30am was that Sheila Bamber was alive inside the farmhouse?

[mike tesko]

Hi Mike, if that was the case it's has to be reasonable to assume that the belief at Witham at around 8.30am was that Sheila Bamber was alive inside the farmhouse?

Hi Maggie,

you are absolutely right, here look at the following speed / time calculations, based upon DCI Jones leaving Witham police station, at around 8:35am, after being briefed sending him racing to the scene, arriving there at around 9.05am - how fast was the car in which DCI Jones travelled in, going en route to whf:-

[maggie]

Hi Maggie,

you are absolutely right, here look at the following speed / time calculations, based upon DCI Jones leaving Witham police station, at around 8:35am, after being briefed sending him racing to the scene, arriving there at around 9.05am - how fast was the car in which DCI Jones travelled in, going en route to whf:-

Am I right in thinking he wasn't driving very fast ...... why?

[mike tesko]

Am I right in thinking he wasn't driving very fast ...... why?

Hi Maggie,

the way I see it, if DCI Jones set off to the scene not knowing that any of the hostages had been shot and killed, he would have needed to be leaving Witham police station before the police surgeon, Dr Craig, pronounced anyone as being dead at the scene. If we therefore say that at the very latest DCI Jones set off from Witham police station to go to the scene at 8.43am, arriving there at 9.05am, it took him a minimum journey travel time of 22 minutes, if we apply this information to the calculations provided, it produces an average speed of 34.0909 MPH:-

[maggie]

Hi Maggie,
the way I see it, if DCI Jones set off to the scene not knowing that any of the hostages had been shot and killed, he would have needed to be leaving Witham police station before the police surgeon, Dr Craig, pronounced anyone as being dead at the scene. If we therefore say that at the very latest DCI Jones set off from Witham police station to go to the scene at 8.43am, arriving there at 9.05am, it took him a minimum journey travel time of 22 minutes, if we apply this information to the calculations provided, it produces an average speed of 34.0909 MPH:-

Exactly Mike so at an average speed of about 34 mph he wasn't speeding?

[mike tesko]

What we find, is that it has so far not yet been officially disclosed who sent DCI 'Taff' Jones racing to the scene, but I can reveal that it was as a result of the telephone conversation between DCS Harris at the scene (8.15 to 8.30am) and ACC Peter Simpson, regarding how the police operation at the scene had just gone pearshaped, with the disappearance of Sheila's body from the kitchen, to elsewhere inside the farm house, ACC Simpson contacted DCI Jones by telephone at 8.30am, and relayed information passed by DCS Harris at the scene, and by that / this stage, Sheila had been running amok inside the farmhouse but had been located found collapsed upon the bed in the main bedroom...

[mike tesko]

What we find, is that it has so far not yet been officially disclosed who sent DCI 'Taff' Jones racing to the scene, but I can reveal that it was as a result of the telephone conversation between DCS Harris at the scene (8.15 to 8.30am) and ACC Peter Simpson, regarding how the police operation at the scene had just gone pearshaped, with the disappearance of Sheila's body from the kitchen, to elsewhere inside the farm house, ACC Simpson contacted DCI Jones by telephone at 8.30am, and relayed information passed by DCS Harris at the scene, and by that / this stage, Sheila had been running amok inside the farmhouse but had been located found collapsed upon the bed in the main bedroom...

By this stage, no-one had officially been pronounced as being dead - this did not occur until around 8.44am when Dr Craig, obliged...

[mike tesko]

Exactly Mike so at an average speed of about 34 mph he wasn't speeding?

There would have been stretches of road along the route between Witham police station and the scene at whf, where DCI Jones vehicle exceeded the speed limit, but other parts where there were road junctions, and other morning traffic, where the speed was restricted, or even at a standstill, hope this helps...

[mike tesko]

I do not believe that DCI Jones knew anyone had been officially pronounced as being dead at the scene, in keeping with his account, because he set off to the scene at whf only knowing what ACC Peter Simpson had told him at 8.30am - Sheila had been running amok inside the farmhouse and had been keeping police at bay, police had been finding it difficult to locate her, but had managed to pinpoint her location to the main bedroom by 8.30am, her body collapsed on the bed with a wound to the throat. So, off goes DCI Jones to the scene, arriving there at around 9.05am, he was unaware that the police surgeon, Dr Craig had pronounced all the victims as officially being dead at 8.44am, or that at the scene the police surgeon was being escorted around the various crime scenes inside the premises, by DCS Harris, DCI Gibbons, and PI Montgomery, who all describe Sheila's body as being located on the far side of the bed, with only one wound to her neck...

[maggie]

There would have been stretches of road along the route between Witham police station and the scene at whf, where DCI Jones vehicle exceeded the speed limit, but other parts where there were road junctions, and other morning traffic, where the speed was restricted, or even at a standstill, hope this helps...

Yes I accept that, as country roads can be slow going.

[mike tesko]

Hi Mike, if that was the case it's has to be reasonable to assume that the belief at Witham at around 8.30am was that Sheila Bamber was alive inside the farmhouse?

Hi maggie,

I think it is fair to say that DCI Jones, ACC Simpson, DCS Harris, and all those present at the scene, knew that Sheila had been alive inside the farmhouse until at the very least (by that stage) 8.30am, because her body had originally been found (7.37am), in the kitchen downstairs, yet ended up on the bed in the main bedroom, upstairs, by 8.30am, and the displacement of her body had not involved intervention by any police officer, from one place to the other...

[mike tesko]

Hi maggie,
 I think it is fair to say that DCI Jones, ACC Simpson, DCS Harris, and all those present at the scene, knew that Sheila had been alive inside the farmhouse until at the very least (by that stage) 8.30am, because her body had originally been found (7.37am) in the kitchen downstairs, yet ended up on the bed in the main bedroom, upstairs, by 8.30am, and the displacement of her body had not involved intervention by any police officer, from one place to the other...

In Jeremy's account, he believes that the raid team only saw Sheila's body in the kitchen, through the kitchen window, but that she had been disturbed or woken up by the raid team banging the farmhouse door in with a sledge hammer, causing her to run upstairs and shoot herself in the bedroom - but how could his account be true, if the contents of the various police radio message log contents was / is true, between 7.37 and 8.10am? How could the raid team find "the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female", upon entry, at 7.37am; "one dead male, one dead female" by 7.38am; "can someone contact police surgeon, and coroners officer, regarding two bodies", by 7.41am; "can DS Davison come into the office because police at whf are dealing with a murder, and a suicide", by 7.45am; "after a thorough search of the premises, a further three bodies found upstairs, five dead in total", by 8.10am, if the police had only seen her body through the kitchen window, not actually found her there, after they got in? 

If Sheila had run upstairs as contended by Jeremy, why did police only discover three bodies upstairs at 8;10am, not four?