A Killer Will Always Leave Something.

[susan]

Hello april  I have heard that before about the bad blood and I would suspect Jeremy's and Sheila's birth parents would have been vetted.  I have often wondered if some parents adopt more to do with a need in themselves other than the needs the children require not saying this was the case of the Bambers by the way but sometimes a couple want to fit in by being the perfect family in a perfect village with Church/.Mothers Union son to carry on the farm.  I suppose I am not qualified really to comment on needs for children I have friends who have been desperate for children it is a subject that everyone will have a different take on.  Have I gone off topic again

[lookout]

Susan,,I was just about to say that besides having the children to fill a void in their lives,,it may also have been in Junes' mind that she " wouldn't be left out ".An unkind way of putting it,but she wasn't exactly mother material in the sense of the word,,and your own suggestion about the parents needs rather than those of the childs,rings true in some ways when at first nannies were hired to take the strain,,then as they got older,they were bundled off to boarding school.
No amount of money would have tempted me to send my children away.Even the odd weekends they stayed with my parents,I missed them,so I couldn't have subjected the children to be sent away for any length of time.
Junes first ECT therapy was before she adopted. This would have been held within the doctors notes,but whether it would have been required then as proof of background,etc,I don't know. Maybe today,,someone like June may not be a suitable candidate for adoption,,I don't know.

[Jane]

Hello april  I have heard that before about the bad blood and I would suspect Jeremy's and Sheila's birth parents would have been vetted.  I have often wondered if some parents adopt more to do with a need in themselves other than the needs the children require not saying this was the case of the Bambers by the way but sometimes a couple want to fit in by being the perfect family in a perfect village with Church/.Mothers Union son to carry on the farm.  I suppose I am not qualified really to comment on needs for children I have friends who have been desperate for children it is a subject that everyone will have a different take on.  Have I gone off topic again

Susan, I hear what you say about "perfection." We all have our own idea about what is ideal/perfect. I'm interest in a question from your previous post in which you ask if it was right for June to adopt a second child when her mental health was fragile. I'm not clear on how they went about adopting Sheila. These things are generally arranged through the family GP who will write, on the would be parents, to the adoption society of their choice, in this case, understandably, the C of E Childrens' Society. It may be that having managed one successful adoption, a second was just a formality and they weren't required to go through the same lengthy process as the first. It MAY be that they bypassed their GP and went straight to the CofECS. If the adoptions were private I don't think medical questions would have been asked.

[lookout]

I doubt it would happen today,April.

[susan]

April I suspect that back in the seventies the main criteria for being suitable adoptive parents would be your standing in Society ability to provide a good home and education and I think the illness June had suffered would not have come into the equation I think her own Doctor would have been perfectly satisfied that June was cured from her illness and would make a good Mother. Things are so different now I spoke with a young couple when I was out walking and they had moved from England to Scotland as it is so much easier to adopt here and they have two lovely daughters and what a happy family they appear to be complete with Lucy the dog

[lookout]

And how much you were worth went a long way,I suspect too.

[Steve_uk]

In Sheila's case, before we jump on the state for having failed in their duty to her, I wonder if there wasn't too much in the way of collusion going on with "interested parties." I'm not pointing fingers or making accusations because, even though I have far more knowledge of the illness that did June, Nevill AND possibly Colin and his mother, I've never had close personal experience of someone who has the illness. I feel it might be easy enough to go down the road of "keeping quiet about it," in part to protect the sufferer from being stigmatized, but also to protect themselves against it, but mainly because if it is ignored, it just MIGHT go away...........................in the meantime, there are occasions when she was on her own with the twins because it couldn't be avoided, and there were times when she was forgetting to take her medication. There were times when her neighbours could hear her screaming during the night. Presumably, if the children were there, so too, did they. What else might they have witnessed of their mother's strange behaviour? What were they doing whilst she was unable to get out of bed to wash them, dress them, feed them, get them to school? They MAY not have done themselves serious damage, but what about the near misses? Children, little more than babies allowed to wander through the minefield that a domestic kitchen without adult supervision, can become. How did they cope when Mummy was talking to people they couldn't see, when Mummy grew ANGRY with an invisible person, and if Mummy forgot to/wouldn't take the medication the doctor gave her, MAYBE she forgot that there was other stuff she SHOULDN'T take in front of them, but took it thinking it was what the doctor had given her. How much easier might life have been for everybody had Social Services been allowed so kind of input. Steve talks about Colin being a wonderful father and whilst he was there he probably was. I don't doubt that the Bambers adored their little grandsons, but they couldn't be with them all the time, nor would it have been appropriate . I don't doubt either that Sheila loved her boys but when I think of the times that it's been suggested that June should not have been allowed to adopt because of her mental fragility, it seems rather strange that no one has suggested that Sheila, because of her illness, shouldn't have been allowed to keep her children. I think, through no fault of her own, without constant supervision, Sheila could have posed a far greater threat to HER children than did June to hers.

Colin had taken over the lion's share of the childcare by the time of Sheila's death,which is why the fostering or adoption story peddled by Jeremy just doesn't ring true.Of course there are similarities in all cases of schizophrenia,whether this is the hereditary element,the stressful event trigger,the hearing of voices(June did not hear voices and was not schizophrenic as such,but she did suffer from some of the symptoms such as believing the nurses were listening into her conversations,which is why she and Robert Boutflour talked in the St. Andrew's car park),yet Dr. Hugh Cameron Ferguson's assessment of Sheila was that she was not dangerous to her children. In the Anthony Waterlow case he had a history of violent actions including threatening rape and knife assaults,whereas Sheila had full access to kitchen knives and the most which was documented was self-harm,whether this was putting her hand through a window or carving the inscription "I hate this place" in a wardrobe at White House Farm. Waterlow is the nightmare scenario for any doctor's diagnosis as he is assumed to be not sick enough to be admitted,but even he does not take his niece's life at the murder scene,just as Catherine Murch spared her husband,yet we are supposed to believe Sheila killed them all,then turned the gun on herself.

[Alias]

Susan, we can't rule out that June not only felt nervous at the prospect of adoption but she may also have felt a huge weight of responsibility on her. I had it drummed into me that many people had warned my mother against adoption because "You don't know how it will turn out" and "It might have bad blood" I have no way of knowing if this was true, but I suspect, that as she didn't tell a soul of her adoption plans, it wasn't and she was simply telling me of her own fears. I was bought up to know exactly how things were done. "We don't do things like that in OUR family" being her mantra. Trouble was, the things which WERE done didn't feel comfortable to me, but they formed her very high expectations of me and had little or nothing to do with the rest of the family. I understand now that she had an unquenchable desperation to prove to others that she was the one person in the family who could raise the perfect child. I know now that none of them had believed her to be suitable mother material.

Your mother was lucky to get you, an intelligent, lovely person! If she could not/cannot see that, her loss.

[Jane]

Colin had taken over the lion's share of the childcare by the time of Sheila's death,which is why the fostering or adoption story peddled by Jeremy just doesn't ring true.Of course there are similarities in all cases of schizophrenia,whether this is the hereditary element,the stressful event trigger,the hearing of voices(June did not hear voices and was not schizophrenic as such,but she did suffer from some of the symptoms such as believing the nurses were listening in her conversations,which is why she and Robert Boutflour  talked in the St. Andrew's car park),yet Dr. Hugh Cameron Ferguson's assessment of Sheila was that she was not dangerous to her children. In the Anthony Waterlow case he had a history of violent actions including threatening rape and knife assaults,whereas Sheila had full access kitchen knives and the most which was documented was  self-harm,whether this was putting her hand through a window or carving the inscription "I hate this place" in a wardrobe at White House Farm. Waterlow is the nightmare scenario for any doctor's diagnosis as he is assumed to be not sick enough to be admitted,but even he does not take his niece's life at the murder scene,just as Catherine Murch spared her husband,yet we are supposed to believe Sheila killed them all,then turned the gun on herself.

So you obviously don't think that June and Nevill were concerned in anyway that Sheila was living on her own in London, clearly unable to care for herself, let alone the boys, and relying on them for her daily existence. You obviously feel there was no reason for them to be concerned over her erratic interest in the boys or her refusal to help June with them. You seem not to think that they might be concerned about what would happen to her if she forgot to take her meds when she was living alone. Do you imagine over those three days prior to the killings that June and Nevill went to bed and DIDN'T voice their worries concerning her. WAKE UP STEVE This is real life and Sheila, whatEVER Dr F said, was a potential danger to her boys at any given time. It had been just about a year since Sheila had last stayed at the farm and I'm prepared to put money on that Nevill and June witnessed a massive deterioration in her.

[lookout]

So right,April. The poor woman was like a ticking time-bomb. God help an anyone in her path ! As it were.

[Jane]

Your mother was lucky to get you, an intelligent, lovely person! If she could not/cannot see that, her loss.

Alias, that is SO kind, THANK-YOU

[Alias]

Alias, that is SO kind, THANK-YOU

But it is the truth!

[Steve_uk]

So you obviously don't think that June and Nevill were concerned in anyway that Sheila was living on her own in London, clearly unable to care for herself, let alone the boys, and relying on them for her daily existence. You obviously feel there was no reason for them to be concerned over her erratic interest in the boys or her refusal to help June with them. You seem not to think that they might be concerned about what would happen to her if she forgot to take her meds when she was living alone. Do you imagine over those three days prior to the killings that June and Nevill went to bed and DIDN'T voice their worries concerning her. WAKE UP STEVE This is real life and Sheila, whatEVER Dr F said, was a potential danger to her boys at any given time. It had been just about a year since Sheila had last stayed at the farm and I'm prepared to put money on that Nevill and June witnessed a massive deterioration in her.

Sheila was not a danger to her sons-let's nail that big lie right now. Had they felt that way the twins would have told Colin. I also checked up on the "So she's finally done it" remark made by Colin on the doorstep,which was made upon learning of Sheila's death but before he had been informed his sons had also been slain. Had Nevill and June perceived their daughter as a threat they would have told Pamela on the telephone,and as for the gun lying on the settle in the scullery this had been done before according to Robert Boutflour's typewritten notes,evoking a fear from Nevill to him as well as to Barbara Wilson concerning the lethal cocktail of Jeremy alongside weapons.

[Jane]

Sheila was not a danger to her sons-let's nail that big lie right  now. Had they felt that way the twins  would have told Colin. I also checked up on the "So she's finally done it" remark made by Colin on the doorstep,which was made upon learning of Sheila's death but before he had been informed his sons had also been slain. Had Nevill and June perceived their daughter as a threat they would have told Pamela on the telephone,and as for the gun lying on the settle in the scullery this had been done before according to Robert Boutflour's typewritten notes,evoking a fear from Nevill to him as well as to Barbara Wilson concerning the lethal cocktail of Jeremy alongside weapons.

Whilst Sheila was in the state she was, she was a POTENTIAL danger to her children. I'm not talking deliberate attacks, but if she started to believe that they would seduce or harm her, it was a possibility, I'm talking about the dangers which come from taking ones eye off the ball where small children are concerned. The hot iron, the boiling kettle, the electric hob, the kitchen scissors/knives, doors left open. BREAKING NEWS STEVE. Children DON'T tell tales on their parents, they try to protect them. FAR too much responsibility for little people to carry, don't you think? You do all the checking you want on what Colin said. The fear MUST have been at the back of his mind for him to have blurted out those words. What earthly good would it have done to tell Pamela of their fears, at that stage of the game, with Sheila there and PLEASE don't try and side step to the gun. It was a FARM, for God's sake, that's what they did. It isn't a perfect world, Steve. Often bad stuff happens because of lots of small inconsequentials coming together at the wrong time.

[lookout]

 " So she's finally done it ",,said Colin.Which were the first words out of his mouth on hearing the news of the tragedy.  What EXACTLY did he know,,that we don't.  ?