A Killer Will Always Leave Something.

[lookout]

I wouldn't imagine June was particularly sensitive to Sheila's adolescent moods and possibly thought her chaotic behaviour was because she was 'bad' rather than unwell.  However, we will never know the truth and there is no one to tell us what really happened. It was and still is a dreadful tragedy imo.

Very true,,and a very sad end,Maggie. Somehow I wished I'd known the family.

[Jane]

So horrendous Lookout and so dreadful for Anthony, he committed those murders when he was ill and not in sane mind, why should he be punished, he couldn't help his illness and not taking medication is a symptom of the illness and not chosen, irresponsible behaviour. 

Once again we see the state neglecting their responsibilities and then punishing one of the victims. 

I have always wondered if Sheila's apparent extreme hate directed towards June was partly at least caused by her illness, paranoid schizophrenics very often direct hate and fear towards a close member of their family.   I have always thought June was clumsy with words, that she repeated the way she had been treated with fire and brimstone religion and was no doubt insensitive at times but she loved her children as proved by the letter she wrote to them, in the event of her death.

Interesting comparison Lookout.

In Sheila's case, before we jump on the state for having failed in their duty to her, I wonder if there wasn't too much in the way of collusion going on with "interested parties." I'm not pointing fingers or making accusations because, even though I have far more knowledge of the illness that did June, Nevill AND possibly Colin and his mother, I've never had close personal experience of someone who has the illness. I feel it might be easy enough to go down the road of "keeping quiet about it," in part to protect the sufferer from being stigmatized, but also to protect themselves against it, but mainly because if it is ignored, it just MIGHT go away...........................in the meantime, there are occasions when she was on her own with the twins because it couldn't be avoided, and there were times when she was forgetting to take her medication. There were times when her neighbours could hear her screaming during the night. Presumably, if the children were there, so too, did they. What else might they have witnessed of their mother's strange behaviour? What were they doing whilst she was unable to get out of bed to wash them, dress them, feed them, get them to school? They MAY not have done themselves serious damage, but what about the near misses? Children, little more than babies allowed to wander through the minefield that a domestic kitchen without adult supervision, can become. How did they cope when Mummy was talking to people they couldn't see, when Mummy grew ANGRY with an invisible person, and if Mummy forgot to/wouldn't take the medication the doctor gave her, MAYBE she forgot that there was other stuff she SHOULDN'T take in front of them, but took it thinking it was what the doctor had given her. How much easier might life have been for everybody had Social Services been allowed so kind of input. Steve talks about Colin being a wonderful father and whilst he was there he probably was. I don't doubt that the Bambers adored their little grandsons, but they couldn't be with them all the time, nor would it have been appropriate . I don't doubt either that Sheila loved her boys but when I think of the times that it's been suggested that June should not have been allowed to adopt because of her mental fragility, it seems rather strange that no one has suggested that Sheila, because of her illness, shouldn't have been allowed to keep her children. I think, through no fault of her own, without constant supervision, Sheila could have posed a far greater threat to HER children than did June to hers.

[maggie]

In Sheila's case, before we jump on the state for having failed in their duty to her, I wonder if there wasn't too much in the way of collusion going on with "interested parties." I'm not pointing fingers or making accusations because, even though I have far more knowledge of the illness that did June, Nevill AND possibly Colin and his mother, I've never had close personal experience of someone who has the illness. I feel it might be easy enough to go down the road of "keeping quiet about it," in part to protect the sufferer from being stigmatized, but also to protect themselves against it, but mainly because if it is ignored, it just MIGHT go away...........................in the meantime, there are occasions when she was on her own with the twins because it couldn't be avoided, and there were times when she was forgetting to take her medication. There were times when her neighbours could hear her screaming during the night. Presumably, if the children were there, so too, did they. What else might they have witnessed of their mother's strange behaviour? What were they doing whilst she was unable to get out of bed to wash them, dress them, feed them, get them to school? They MAY not have done themselves serious damage, but what about the near misses? Children, little more than babies allowed to wander through the minefield that a domestic kitchen without adult supervision, can become. How did they cope when Mummy was talking to people they couldn't see, when Mummy grew ANGRY with an invisible person, and if Mummy forgot to/wouldn't take the medication the doctor gave her, MAYBE she forgot that there was other stuff she SHOULDN'T take in front of them, but took it thinking it was what the doctor had given her. How much easier might life have been for everybody had Social Services been allowed so kind of input. Steve talks about Colin being a wonderful father and whilst he was there he probably was. I don't doubt that the Bambers adored their little grandsons, but they couldn't be with them all the time, nor would it have been appropriate . I don't doubt either that Sheila loved her boys but when I think of the times that it's been suggested that June should not have been allowed to adopt because of her mental fragility, it seems rather strange that no one has suggested that Sheila, because of her illness, shouldn't have been allowed to keep her children. I think, through no fault of her own, without constant supervision, Sheila could have posed a far greater threat to HER children than did June to hers.

Totally agree with you April.

[lookout]

Aww,folks,,another murder/suicide reported 20 minutes ago. A 33 year old woman has killed her two children,both boys,one aged 5 and the other a 7 month old baby. It was in Brent,North West London.
No information is yet given on the injuries,but police aren't looking for anyone else in connection with the tragedy.

[susan]

Hi lookout/Maggie

just a hypothetical question if a child is adopted and never told of this do you think the child will react differently in life to situations than say if the child was not adopted suppose what I am trying to say is it the bonding that the child misses or is it a psychological effect when the child is told of the adoption

[lookout]

Hi lookout/Maggie

just a hypothetical question if a child is adopted and never told of this do you think the child will react differently in life to situations than say if the child was not adopted suppose what I am trying to say is it the bonding that the child misses or is it a psychological effect when the child is told of the adoption

Hi Susan,,I think you have to study that child first as to whether you're going to envisage any negative reaction of sorts before explaining to him/her. It's like being a specialist who uses his common sense ( hopefully ) in whether to tell his patient that they haven't got long to live. It's a matter of being tuned-in to them as an individual.
It's possible in Sheilas' case that things could well have been different if she had been told later on that she'd been adopted,,or both of them,then one wouldn't have told the other.
Sadly though,,with an uncle like they had,it wouldn't have remained private and personal for long.He was a very hurtful man,besides having been damaging while the children were growing up,,as anyone with his obnoxious attitude towards the Bamber children was,to my mind,nothing short of disgraceful,,and when you have that kind of a person who resented you from the minute you were received into the Bamber household,it doesn't make for a good relationship and would always be a reminder that " you didn't belong ".

It's difficult to say whether Sheila would have turned out differently had she not known she'd been adopted,,without knowing any of the family personally.

[Jane]

Hi lookout/Maggie

just a hypothetical question if a child is adopted and never told of this do you think the child will react differently in life to situations than say if the child was not adopted suppose what I am trying to say is it the bonding that the child misses or is it a psychological effect when the child is told of the adoption

Susan, I'm neither Lookout or Maggie but Hello anyway I don't remember being told(OR have I suppressed the memory of being told :D?) I think it's fairly safe to say my mother didn't bond with me and when the penny finally dropped I assumed it was because I wasn't really "hers." I think it would have been VERY much worse for me had I NOT known I was adopted. The bonding still wouldn't have happened and I'd have had no idea why. It's a really interesting question that you ask and I'd encourage you to ask it whenever you can because I imagine you'll receive all manner of different answers. I'm not sure if there's a right or wrong one but it certainly ISN'T one answer fits all.

[susan]

Hello april

thank you for your interesting reply. Yes what I am interested in is although Sheila was adopted had she never been aware of this do you think she would have grown up any differently was her illness caused by circumstances or was it an inborn weakness that may have still happened if her birth Mother had kept her.

[susan]

Hi lookout

I think the Bamber children were at a disadvantage from the start not being really accepted by some of the extended family they surely would have felt unloved and maybe grow up with a slightly inferior complex,  It has been said that Jeremy was known to be arrogant and it appears a rebel with his misdemeanours I wonder if he felt rejected as a child and this in turn affected his behaviour as he got older and this applies I suspect to poor Sheila as well.

[Jane]

Hello april

thank you for your interesting reply. Yes what I am interested in is although Sheila was adopted had she never been aware of this do you think she would have grown up any differently was her illness caused by circumstances or was it an inborn weakness that may have still happened if her birth Mother had kept her.

Susan, several years ago I took part in a paper for a University. The subject was "What effect Double Bind had on adopted children" At the time it was being posited that it gave rise to schizophrenia. I know of a couple of cases where it possibly has, but two cases prove nothing.

Back to Sheila. I think if she hadn't been told, she would very quickly have picked up that something didn't feel right. I think June's expectations of her would have proved more than she was capable of delivering and it would have led to other problems. Is it possible that June could have kept the secret, especially during those times when Sheila tried her patience. How could June have ensured that her brother in law wouldn't have "accidentally" dropped hints. Like lookout, I'm inclined to think it was a set of adverse circumstances which caused her illness, but why should Sheila have succumbed to it and I didn't. Could it be that her biological background was more delicately placed than my own, and although they were academics they weren't blessed with the strong constitutions of, shall we say, more common stock?

[lookout]

Hello april

thank you for your interesting reply. Yes what I am interested in is although Sheila was adopted had she never been aware of this do you think she would have grown up any differently was her illness caused by circumstances or was it an inborn weakness that may have still happened if her birth Mother had kept her.

Sheila may possibly have felt insecure when she was first handed to June,,as June didn't have that " motherly " instinct being new to motherhood. I'm in no way knocking adoptive mums,as birth mothers can be exactly the same,,as when a child is presented to you,whatever the circumstances,there's a mixture of joy and fear combined,and unless that joy takes over from the fear,you're going to have an insecure child. We've all gone through it.The screaming,crying when it's been fed and changed and won't settle,,and poor June will have been mortified at times probably,like we all were,,but it's that being able to cope and I don't think June was fully aware of her new responsibility, having previously had treatment for a depressive illness. June may have also been on edge,which a baby senses,as it soon learns from a very early age and picks up from mums feelings.
To be honest,,I think that if Sheila had been brought up in a totally different environment where other children were heard as well as seen,,she'd have been a different girl. Maybe if her birth mother would have kept her, things also may have proved to be different.
Sheila wanted to be loved,and it wasn't coming forthwith. Probably having her twins gave her the love that she craved.How really sad when I think of that girl and how her life should have been.

[susan]

Hi april/lookout

I am now wondering if indeed June was a suitable person to adopt children.  Not wishing to sound unkind as I know she would have done her best but my feelings are that adopted children need to feel more secure than say a child who is not adopted and poor June herself was not well and she was totally consumed with religion which IMO is not a good influence on a child.  Sending them both away to Boarding School IMO was not a wise thing to do although it would be done for the right reasons maybe for the Bambers but not the children.  Very very sad state of affairs.  I do believe certain traits in a child's behaviour is inherited from their birth parents and other aspects from their parents who raised them.  I always thought it was strange when Jeremy's birth Father said Jeremy was a wicked wicked man he seems to forget he is carrying his genes

[lookout]

Hi april/lookout

I am now wondering if indeed June was a suitable person to adopt children.  Not wishing to sound unkind as I know she would have done her best but my feelings are that adopted children need to feel more secure than say a child who is not adopted and poor June herself was not well and she was totally consumed with religion which IMO is not a good influence on a child.  Sending them both away to Boarding School IMO was not a wise thing to do although it would be done for the right reasons maybe for the Bambers but not the children.  Very very sad state of affairs.  I do believe certain traits in a child's behaviour is inherited from their birth parents and other aspects from their parents who raised them.  I always thought it was strange when Jeremy's birth Father said Jeremy was a wicked wicked man he seems to forget he is carrying his genes

Susan,,you'll usually find that religion has a similar effect on a person as drugs in that they are both used to block out reality. Poor June had this religious mania and Sheila as a child would have been brainwashed,,the same as June was trying to do with the twins by making them say prayers from a prayer book. Some bible stories are pretty frightening for children,and at their tender ages,wouldn't have been suitable. Imagine growing up in a family where the " devil " is quoted on many an occasion ?

As for June having been suitable to adopt,,perhaps all was indeed well at the time,,as she saw others with babies and her yearning must have been there,,but nobody can predict how someone is going to turn out. Anyone can suffer a breakdown at sometime in their lives,,but as the years went by,June found herself back at the clinic for more ECT therapy in 1982,was it ? Which could only have been brought on by Sheila and the way life was going for her.
Jeremy on the other hand didn't take too much notice of the goings-on as he would be more embroiled in his love life to worry too much of what was happening,plus,he'd gone to live at Goldhanger,out of the way. He also had the same attitude as others would have had at his age about his family,,which was normal and not an indication that he was about to do them harm.
Yes,,his birth father has forgotten that Jeremy is indeed his son whether he likes it or not. What a pity that Jeremys' other brother and sister didn't get to know Jeremy.It would have made a big difference,,even if only out of curiosity.

[Jane]

Hi april/lookout

I am now wondering if indeed June was a suitable person to adopt children.  Not wishing to sound unkind as I know she would have done her best but my feelings are that adopted children need to feel more secure than say a child who is not adopted and poor June herself was not well and she was totally consumed with religion which IMO is not a good influence on a child.  Sending them both away to Boarding School IMO was not a wise thing to do although it would be done for the right reasons maybe for the Bambers but not the children.  Very very sad state of affairs.  I do believe certain traits in a child's behaviour is inherited from their birth parents and other aspects from their parents who raised them.  I always thought it was strange when Jeremy's birth Father said Jeremy was a wicked wicked man he seems to forget he is carrying his genes

Susan, we can't rule out that June not only felt nervous at the prospect of adoption but she may also have felt a huge weight of responsibility on her. I had it drummed into me that many people had warned my mother against adoption because "You don't know how it will turn out" and "It might have bad blood" I have no way of knowing if this was true, but I suspect, that as she didn't tell a soul of her adoption plans, it wasn't and she was simply telling me of her own fears. I was bought up to know exactly how things were done. "We don't do things like that in OUR family" being her mantra. Trouble was, the things which WERE done didn't feel comfortable to me, but they formed her very high expectations of me and had little or nothing to do with the rest of the family. I understand now that she had an unquenchable desperation to prove to others that she was the one person in the family who could raise the perfect child. I know now that none of them had believed her to be suitable mother material.

[susan]

Hello lookout  did June's mental illness start before or after she adopted Sheila.  Her obsession with religion seemed to affect Sheila more than Jeremy.  Are you of the opinion that if Sheila had been brought up with her birth Mother she would not have ended up with a mental illness.  I am trying to ascertain whether or not mental illness is in the make up of the person when born or does it develop due to some crisis in your life or influences from a Mother/Father. Was it the right thing to do adopting a second child when it would appear June had a somewhat fragile mind.