A Killer Will Always Leave Something.

[Alias]

The widely accepted version of events regarding the initial poor investigation is in my opinion a smokescreen for corrupt practice. Holding their hands up to poor investigation effectively lets EP off the hook and places the blame on Taff Jones who is not able to defend the initial investigation.
       As you observe the "mistakes" made in the secondary investigation could all be explained with reference to the "tried and tested" corruption of 80's police practice.
     Given what is now known and undisputed regarding police corruption, and the many wrongful convictions of this era which occurred because of this widespread, some would say institutionalised, corruption, I am constantly amazed that anyone believes the fanciful and implausible reasons given by the police for these discrepancies.
     The police of this time are proven liars and manipulators of evidence and as such where discrepancies occur that can be explained either by corruption or genuine error, it is reasonable to infer that it is more likely to be the former rather than the latter, especially so given the continued refusal of EP to hand over evidence requested by the defence.
     Only one side in this are unwilling to have all evidence out in the open and the implications of this refusal are surely that EP have something to hide.
     Many posters make reference to the many "myths" that there seem to be about this case and in my opinion the biggest myth is that the first investigation was botched. It is more likely that the entry to the farmhouse was botched. The covering up of the botched raid led to circumstances that made it expedient for EP to blame Bamber and therefore the initial investigation needed to be discredited as a damage limitation exercise.   
     Conveniently the blame for the supposed botched investigation could be placed on the deceased "Taff Jones".
     I don't believe that their was much to investigate anyway really . The events throughout the night and the knowledge of being party to what was an obvious siege that night meant that the police knew exactly what had happened. They hadn't sat outside a silent house with no movement all night without approaching until 7.30 and it is absurd to think so. The belief that Bamber kept them away with his manipulative ways is not tenable and stretches credulity beyond breaking point.
    There was nothing to investigate because the police were witness to the events that night .
     
   

Interesting post. 

That is a good possibility.

Yes, isn´t it just!
It was a lot, I mean a lot, of hours to wait outside.

[grahameb]

Interesting post. 

That is a good possibility.

Yes, isn´t it just!
It was a lot, I mean a lot, of hours to wait outside.

This waiting so long suggests to me that there was something going on inside the house?

[susan]

Hi Grahame think EP thought somebody was still alive in the house and this is why they did not go in sooner till the raid team arrived.  The condition of Sheila's body suggests she died much later than the others.

[grahameb]

Hi Grahame think EP thought somebody was still alive in the house and this is why they did not go in sooner till the raid team arrived.  The condition of Sheila's body suggests she died much later than the others.

Yes. I personally believe that Sheila was the last to die. If Jeremy was the murderer it would benefit him to get Sheila out of the way first of all, as she could have represented trouble when he killed the children. But if she died last, then this suggests that she was the murderer. But having said that, I am also intrigued that she was shot twice and there were just enough bullets left to shoot herself twice. That to me seems to be a bit of a coincidence?

[lookout]

I'm just reading about a tragedy which happened in Australia in 2009,in a place that I know very well as it wasn't far from where my family lived.
It's about a man,who in a psychotic frenzy,,butchered his father and his sister to death. People who he loved dearly.
The story is about Anthony Waterlow,who was born into a middle-class family,attended a private school,and him and his sister enjoyed the privileged background that his father had supported them with.
Then the death of his mother brought about a string of changes when Anthony was in his early 30's.
Over the years,,his friends had noticed marked changes in him,,such as being withdrawn,a far cry from the character of which he was known to be,as a friendly,confident,sociable and keen tennis player,,to someone who was deteriorating,mentally.
A female friend described the change in Anthony 8 years before the killings,,when he started seeing psychiatrists,and was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.His paranoia had centred on hatred for his father and sister,,and it remained focussed on the two people who loved him.
His blame towards his father and sister stemmed from thoughts that they were controlling him,,or trying to control him.
Then in 2004 and 2007, Anthony agreed to be assessed by psychiatrist/s,,where he told them that he believed that his relatives wanted him to kill himself,and were conspiring for him to die.
Anthony had refused to take the medication for his paranoid schizophrenia.
Anthonys' father had tried to get his son committed permanently to a psychiatric institution,,but Anthonys' condition didn't meet the criteria as an in-patient under the Mental Health Act !!! Even though it had been said that he was a danger to others as well as himself.
Anthony was taking drugs and his moods varied between aggression and being withdrawn. He had voices in his head which had intensified leading up to the murders,and he was convinced that his family were devising a plan for him to commit suicide.
He was living alone at this point,and his living conditions were squalid.He'd become a loner,who only visited a local bar where he played on a gaming machine.Staff there spoke of his fragile state.
That day,he left for his sisters' house,where his father was also visiting,,and carried out the murders of both. His sisters' husband was on business in the UK at the time.
Yes,,the killer left behind,,a large bloodied footprint,but there were also CCTV images of a wild-looking Anthony fleeing the scene of carnage.

After a " judge-only " trial,18 months later,Anthony,calm and in control through taking anti-psychotic medications,was committed to a Forensic Prison Hospital in NSW,Australia,,where he'd expressed his remorse.
Because he'd been treated with the right medications,his schizophrenia had all but gone away and he was able to reflect on what had happened and been aware at what he'd done.
He'd also stated that " never in his wildest dreams would he have killed his father and sister,but he did,and he's got to live with that ". That he'll be sorry for the rest of his life.

After that synopsis,NSW are making changes to their Mental Health Act following these murders.

N.B.Anthonys' father more or less kept his sons' illness " under wraps " for a time. Similarly as in the Bamber case regarding Sheila.


   

[lookout]

Might I add to this by saying that Anthonys' family had warned doctors of the fear that they felt as his illness spiralled out of control. His madness and hatred lay festering until it was too late.

[susan]

Hello lookout

thank you for that interesting post for somebody like me who knows nothing about mental health issues stories like that give me an insight to a persons behaviour who are not on the right type of medication and I guess the worse thing that happened with Sheila her medication was halved. The system failed her and her wee boys

[maggie]

I'm just reading about a tragedy which happened in Australia in 2009,in a place that I know very well as it wasn't far from where my family lived.
It's about a man,who in a psychotic frenzy,,butchered his father and his sister to death. People who he loved dearly.
The story is about Anthony Waterlow,who was born into a middle-class family,attended a private school,and him and his sister enjoyed the privileged background that his father had supported them with.
Then the death of his mother brought about a string of changes when Anthony was in his early 30's.
Over the years,,his friends had noticed marked changes in him,,such as being withdrawn,a far cry from the character of which he was known to be,as a friendly,confident,sociable and keen tennis player,,to someone who was deteriorating,mentally.
A female friend described the change in Anthony 8 years before the killings,,when he started seeing psychiatrists,and was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.His paranoia had centred on hatred for his father and sister,,and it remained focussed on the two people who loved him.
His blame towards his father and sister stemmed from thoughts that they were controlling him,,or trying to control him.
Then in 2004 and 2007, Anthony agreed to be assessed by psychiatrist/s,,where he told them that he believed that his relatives wanted him to kill himself,and were conspiring for him to die.
Anthony had refused to take the medication for his paranoid schizophrenia.
Anthonys' father had tried to get his son committed permanently to a psychiatric institution,,but Anthonys' condition didn't meet the criteria as an in-patient under the Mental Health Act !!! Even though it had been said that he was a danger to others as well as himself.
Anthony was taking drugs and his moods varied between aggression and being withdrawn. He had voices in his head which had intensified leading up to the murders,and he was convinced that his family were devising a plan for him to commit suicide.
He was living alone at this point,and his living conditions were squalid.He'd become a loner,who only visited a local bar where he played on a gaming machine.Staff there spoke of his fragile state.
That day,he left for his sisters' house,where his father was also visiting,,and carried out the murders of both. His sisters' husband was on business in the UK at the time.
Yes,,the killer left behind,,a large bloodied footprint,but there were also CCTV images of a wild-looking Anthony fleeing the scene of carnage.

After a " judge-only " trial,18 months later,Anthony,calm and in control through taking anti-psychotic medications,was committed to a Forensic Prison Hospital in NSW,Australia,,where he'd expressed his remorse.
Because he'd been treated with the right medications,his schizophrenia had all but gone away and he was able to reflect on what had happened and been aware at what he'd done.
He'd also stated that " never in his wildest dreams would he have killed his father and sister,but he did,and he's got to live with that ". That he'll be sorry for the rest of his life.

After that synopsis,NSW are making changes to their Mental Health Act following these murders.

N.B.Anthonys' father more or less kept his sons' illness " under wraps " for a time. Similarly as in the Bamber case regarding Sheila.
   

So horrendous Lookout and so dreadful for Anthony, he committed those murders when he was ill and not in sane mind, why should he be punished, he couldn't help his illness and not taking medication is a symptom of the illness and not chosen, irresponsible behaviour. 

Once again we see the state neglecting their responsibilities and then punishing one of the victims. 

I have always wondered if Sheila's apparent extreme hate directed towards June was partly at least caused by her illness, paranoid schizophrenics very often direct hate and fear towards a close member of their family.   I have always thought June was clumsy with words, that she repeated the way she had been treated with fire and brimstone religion and was no doubt insensitive at times but she loved her children as proved by the letter she wrote to them, in the event of her death.

Interesting comparison Lookout.

[lookout]

Hello lookout

thank you for that interesting post for somebody like me who knows nothing about mental health issues stories like that give me an insight to a persons behaviour who are not on the right type of medication and I guess the worse thing that happened with Sheila her medication was halved. The system failed her and her wee boys

Susan,,it's so true of Sheilas' illness,,and so terribly sad how a trauma of sorts can spark off such an illness. In Sheilas' case,childbirth would have put her body into shock,and along with everything else that happened to her in her short life,was enough to cause the reaction that I fully believe happened that night.

[lookout]

Yes,,I would agree that the percentage is much higher in men to commit such murders,but there are also women who aim to kill their children,out of love in their way,and " to a better place " as to how their mind is focussed at the time.
When you think about it,even Australia are lagging behind when it comes to health care for the mentally ill. It's become all too easy just handing out pills,but it goes to prove that unless it's the right medication for the type of mental illness,then you're fighting a losing battle. It's different for each individual case.

Anthony was/is also a good-looking guy,who wanted for nothing really. He loved his family,,but got to hate them through love daft as it sounds. There was also another brother who was younger,,but he wasn't killed ? Because he was no threat to Anthony in any way,,the difference between men who kill and women who kill,,because Sheila saw her children as a threat,both violently and sexually,this is why she killed them.

[lookout]

So horrendous Lookout and so dreadful for Anthony, he committed those murders when he was ill and not in sane mind, why should he be punished, he couldn't help his illness and not taking medication is a symptom of the illness and not chosen, irresponsible behaviour. 

Once again we see the state neglecting their responsibilities and then punishing one of the victims. 

I have always wondered if Sheila's apparent extreme hate directed towards June was partly at least caused by her illness, paranoid schizophrenics very often direct hate and fear towards a close member of their family.   I have always thought June was clumsy with words, that she repeated the way she had been treated with fire and brimstone religion and was no doubt insensitive at times but she loved her children as proved by the letter she wrote to them, in the event of her death.

Interesting comparison Lookout.

Of course it was Sheilas' illness,Maggie. That poor girl must have literally gone through Hell with her feelings.She would have suffered voices in her head with the usual commands to kill,,and doubtless tried to mask them with her drug-taking which seemed to be the natural and normal thing to do to block them out.
I'm almost certain that had enough been known at the time,about the varying aspects of mental illness and the proper medication given,that a lot of Sheilas' anxieties,etc would have gone,and whatever June said to her would have gone right over her head. Sheila took everything to heart,and bottled it all up because she was ill,it's as simple as that. Sadly,nobody had the understanding of it.

[lookout]

It's when you read things like this that you get a clearer understanding of the exact pattern of schizophrenia and who it affects and how. They're not born with the illness,it's created by a trauma,a shock. With Anthony,it was losing his mother,,and with Sheila it wouldn't have helped her situation " losing " hers. Maybe her shock set in when she was told about her birth mother,who knows ? As a child,she wouldn't have had much to say about it,,but it would have been there festering until later years,,and to her it would have been a shock.

[maggie]

It's when you read things like this that you get a clearer understanding of the exact pattern of schizophrenia and who it affects and how. They're not born with the illness,it's created by a trauma,a shock. With Anthony,it was losing his mother,,and with Sheila it wouldn't have helped her situation " losing " hers. Maybe her shock set in when she was told about her birth mother,who knows ? As a child,she wouldn't have had much to say about it,,but it would have been there festering until later years,,and to her it would have been a shock.

I believe in many cases schizophrenia is a hereditary illness, it is often brought on by stress but it often starts to develop in early teens and is often exacerbated when a young person leaves home for the first time.  Sheila imo was already showing signs of the illness long before she was diagnosed.  If she hadn't been away from home at boarding school it may have been spotted much earlier. 

[lookout]

I believe in many cases schizophrenia is a hereditary illness, it is often brought on by stress but it often starts to develop in early teens and is often exacerbated when a young person leaves home for the first time.  Sheila imo was already showing signs of the illness long before she was diagnosed.  If she hadn't been away from home at boarding school it may have been spotted much earlier. 

Yes,,unfortunately both children were treated the same,,and it's never the case at all. They were both separate characters each with their own personalities and what suited one,didn't suit the other,such as you say,Maggie, by sending Sheila away to boarding school,,whereas Jeremy didn't appear to be affected by it the same. Sheila was more sensitive to change,as a lot of children are,and it takes an experienced parent to recognise such signs and symptoms.

[maggie]

Yes,,unfortunately both children were treated the same,,and it's never the case at all. They were both separate characters each with their own personalities and what suited one,didn't suit the other,such as you say,Maggie, by sending Sheila away to boarding school,,whereas Jeremy didn't appear to be affected by it the same. Sheila was more sensitive to change,as a lot of children are,and it takes an experienced parent to recognise such signs and symptoms.

I wouldn't imagine June was particularly sensitive to Sheila's adolescent moods and possibly thought her chaotic behaviour was because she was 'bad' rather than unwell.  However, we will never know the truth and there is no one to tell us what really happened. It was and still is a dreadful tragedy imo.