Reconstruction of events (2)

[mike tesko]

Who moved gun from window, onto body, between 7:15am, and 8:30am?

Much later, the police would say they entered the main bedroom and they found the bodies of June Bamber and Sheila, the latter having the Bamber rifle on top of her body - and more interestingly, they would say that there was only one gun found inside that bedroom. This is rather puzzling in view of the fact that WPC Julia Jeapes, reported seeing what she believed to be a rifle leaning up against that bedroom window, earlier...

How could there now only be one gun found in the main bedroom, and it be found on top of Sheila's body, when at 7:15am, it was leaning up against the bedroom window?

How did the rifle get from leaning up against the bedroom window at 7:15am, to being found on top of Sheila's body by 8:30am?

The police version of events does not fit the (now) known facts...

This is what I was saying the other day.  You would think the member of a specialist firearms team, specifically placed on observational duty, in an extremely serious situation still unfolding, would have a certain level of professional competence.  For me personally, I would need to know what else her sighting could have been, if it was not a rifle.  This issue really stands out for me.

Mullion shading / reflection (the verticals at the window) (unlikely but possible).
Curtain creasing (more likely)
irregularity in older glass (less likely)

Remember, from the photo of the gun at the window, the gun barrel (about 2.5cm wide) was only about 9 inches higher than the window sill... (and we all know how rarely women see 9 inches!).
The main section of the gun would be about 1.5 inches higher than the sill, but not possible to see from the angle she was at... remember she was 12 ft lower than the window looking up into it, so the angle obscures a lot. From 40 yards back too... where she was positioned.

If she used her sight (assuming she had one) it would not change her viewing angle, only her zoom level.

In the end, she never said she was certain, she said she 'thought' it might be.
BUT she thought enough of it to make the comment, and didn't say "I thought I say something.... she was clear enough to say gun".

She makes no mention of asking for confirmation from a second officer a few feet away from her, which one MIGHT reasonably be expected to do...
e.g. "I think I can see a gun... take a look, see what you think".

Wouldn't YOU want to take such a measure if your colleagues were going into a house with a potential gunman/woman?

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Gun which was photographed at the bedroom window after 10 O'clock, by PC Bird (SOC) may not have been in that same position, if Sheila took possession of it to kill herself after WC Jeapes spotted there at about 7:15am, or before the raid team went to get into the farmhouse at 7:30am...

For all we, or anybody knows, the rifle which WPC Jeapes saw, could have been raised up, because its butt was resting on one of the wooden chairs you can see in some photographs taken inside the bedroom there is one particular chair that was photographed close to the window which springs to mind...

In my opinion...

[Roch]

Who moved gun from window, onto body, between 7:15am, and 8:30am?

Much later, the police would say they entered the main bedroom and they found the bodies of June Bamber and Sheila, the latter having the Bamber rifle on top of her body - and more interestingly, they would say that there was only one gun found inside that bedroom. This is rather puzzling in view of the fact that WPC Julia Jeapes, reported seeing what she believed to be a rifle leaning up against that bedroom window, earlier...

How could there now only be one gun found in the main bedroom, and it be found on top of Sheila's body, when at 7:15am, it was leaning up against the bedroom window?

How did the rifle get from leaning up against the bedroom window at 7:15am, to being found on top of Sheila's body by 8:30am?

The police version of events does not fit the (now) known facts...

This is what I was saying the other day.  You would think the member of a specialist firearms team, specifically placed on observational duty, in an extremely serious situation still unfolding, would have a certain level of professional competence.  For me personally, I would need to know what else her sighting could have been, if it was not a rifle.  This issue really stands out for me.

Mullion shading / reflection (the verticals at the window) (unlikely but possible).
Curtain creasing (more likely)
irregularity in older glass (less likely)

Remember, from the photo of the gun at the window, the gun barrel (about 2.5cm wide) was only about 9 inches higher than the window sill... (and we all know how rarely women see 9 inches!).
The main section of the gun would be about 1.5 inches higher than the sill, but not possible to see from the angle she was at... remember she was 12 ft lower than the window looking up into it, so the angle obscures a lot. From 40 yards back too... where she was positioned.

If she used her sight (assuming she had one) it would not change her viewing angle, only her zoom level.

In the end, she never said she was certain, she said she 'thought' it might be.
BUT she thought enough of it to make the comment, and didn't say "I thought I say something.... she was clear enough to say gun".

She makes no mention of asking for confirmation from a second officer a few feet away from her, which one MIGHT reasonably be expected to do...
e.g. "I think I can see a gun... take a look, see what you think".

Wouldn't YOU want to take such a measure if your colleagues were going into a house with a potential gunman/woman?

i can see where you're coming from. Sorry to use an overused phrase on here... but could your suggestions above be seen as 'muddying the water'?  Afterall, her statement is quite plain.  Perhaps at the time, the issue was quite plain.  There appeared to be a rifle leaning against the window.  It's not like Jeapes is 'Velma' from Scooby Doo, on her hands & knees grasping for her glasses.  Surely she must have had some observational skill and experience? Though I have no proof of that 

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Made a new thread to look at this in more detail.

I 'think' I'm being fair in my comments about it...
You'll soon tell me if you dont think so! ;-)

[mike tesko]

Made a new thread to look at this in more detail.

I 'think' I'm being fair in my comments about it...
You'll soon tell me if you dont think so! ;-)

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It was just after WPC Julia Jeapes made this sighting of the gun at the bedroom window, that the raid team commenced their approach to enter the farmhouse - which I think is a significant feature...

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Made a new thread to look at this in more detail.

I 'think' I'm being fair in my comments about it...
You'll soon tell me if you dont think so! ;-)

-------------------------------

It was just after WPC Julia Jeapes made this sighting of the gun at the bedroom window, that the raid team commenced their approach to enter the farmhouse - which I think is a significant feature...

Could be. But they were already going in, which is why she was positioned there in the first place.

By 'already going in' I mean to say they had already declared their intention to go it, and were setting up the cover team (of which Jeapes was one). She was in place when she made the observation just prior to them going in.

I'm not sure it would be right to say her sighting was the catalyst - the decision was made quite a time before was just about to commence, but I do think her sighting can't just be 'ignored' without some decent discussion on it. I doubt we'll resolve it!, but still, it's nice to get different views and let others decide for themselves.
I can't see her 'making it up' so if it wasn't a gun, what was it?

[mike tesko]

Made a new thread to look at this in more detail.

I 'think' I'm being fair in my comments about it...
You'll soon tell me if you dont think so! ;-)

-------------------------------

It was just after WPC Julia Jeapes made this sighting of the gun at the bedroom window, that the raid team commenced their approach to enter the farmhouse - which I think is a significant feature...

Could be. But they were already going in, which is why she was positioned there in the first place.

By 'already going in' I mean to say they had already declared their intention to go it, and were setting up the cover team (of which Jeapes was one). She was in place when she made the observation just prior to them going in.

I'm not sure it would be right to say her sighting was the catalyst - the decision was made quite a time before was just about to commence, but I do think her sighting can't just be 'ignored' without some decent discussion on it. I doubt we'll resolve it!, but still, it's nice to get different views and let others decide for themselves.
I can't see her 'making it up' so if it wasn't a gun, what was it?

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I think her sighting was a significant feature in why the raid team went in when they did - the gun was seen at the bedroom window, which led the police at the scene to believe that Sheila was upstairs in the bedroom...

in my opinion...

[TheBrilliantMistake]

The decision and time had already been agreed, so no, it wasn't a factor in when or why they went in.

She was only there BECAUSE they were preparing to go in. So how can her sighting be causal?

If they'd delayed it, yes!
If they'd changed their plans in another way, yes!

But I don't see how they deviated in any way from their original plans.

Talk me through what you're thinking....

[mike tesko]

The decision and time had already been agreed, so no, it wasn't a factor in when or why they went in.

She was only there BECAUSE they were preparing to go in. So how can her sighting be causal?

If they'd delayed it, yes!
If they'd changed their plans in another way, yes!

But I don't see how they deviated in any way from their original plans.

Talk me through what you're thinking....

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Second lot of firearms team arrived at the scene at 7am, along with two ambulances and their crews, WPC Julia Jeapes was one of these officers who did not arrive at the scene until 7am. Within 15 minutes of arriving at the scene, she is in the grounds keeping observations on the house; looking out for clues as to movement of bodies etc...

There is no evidence at all, or any timing given about the decision, to send armed police into the farmhouse. Fact is, that they did not start going to the farmhouse until about 7:30am, which was after the sighting made by WPC Jeapes. She herself mentions seeing the raid team going towards the house after her sighting of the rifle at the bedroom window...