Author Topic: Events after 7th September  (Read 3036 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kaldin

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6961
Events after 7th September
« on: March 08, 2011, 01:35:PM »
I have some questions and comments about what happened after 7th September.

If I get any of this wrong, feel free to correct me.  ;D

As I understand it, Julie Mugford went to the police on 7th September and told them that Jeremy had hired a hitman to kill his family. Jeremy and Matthew McDonald were arrested on 8th September and interviewed for several days.

Were they in custody at this time?

Julie Mugford and Elizabeth Rimington stayed at some kind of police training school whilst they made their statements - that took until 12th September. What did they do after that?

Jeremy was bailed from the police station on 13th September, so what did he do? Did he attempt to contact Julie Mugford to ask her why on earth she had made up such stories about him? No, he went on holiday to the South of France after breaking into the farm to get some documents. He returned on 29th September and was arrested as soon as set foot in the UK. I presume he was remanded in custody after that.

Who did he go on holiday with?

I find it quite odd that he went on holiday. After all, his ex had just accused him of a heinous crime, and although he was released, you'd think he'd be worried and try to get to the bottom of it wouldn't you?

Was Julie Mugford under police protection or what?


Offline Kaldin

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6961
Re: Events after 7th September
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2011, 01:47:PM »
Was this holiday something which had been planned in advance? Robert Boutflour remarked in his diary that Jeremy had told a shopkeeper that he was going to Spain on 6th September, and on 4th September he remarked that Julie was going on holiday in a few days time before returned to university in three weeks time. 

Jeremy didn't go to Spain on 6th September obviously, and he ended going to the South of France, but was this holiday supposed to be with Julie? 

Hartley

  • Guest
Re: Events after 7th September
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2011, 01:57:PM »
Are you legally able to leave the country if out on bail? I didn't think you were, but perhaps it's changed or perhaps he has permission?

Offline Kaldin

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6961
Re: Events after 7th September
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2011, 02:02:PM »
Are you legally able to leave the country if out on bail? I didn't think you were, but perhaps it's changed or perhaps he has permission?

I don't know. I'm wondering if they just didn't have enough to go on and they didn't take Julie Mugford seriously.


Offline TheBrilliantMistake

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 720
Re: Events after 7th September
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2011, 07:20:PM »
If she said a hitman was hired, it definitely makes sense to arrest JB and Hitman at the same time.

Then, having proven hitman couldn't be true (wonder what the irrefutable alibi was?), the police must have faced a dilemma...

Is Mugford making it up? (I assume hitman said "no idea what you're on about guv", and JB said "she's lying, she's just discovered I had sex with a mutual friend, and she's mad about it!)

OR

Why would she make it up?

I'm not sure how long it took them to determine that it sounded too outrageous to be made up (and maybe from Mugford's demeanour, believed it was real), but they eventually reckoned that JB HAD told her this, but he himself had committed the crime.

Maybe they'd already detained him for long enough? and had to let him go
Maybe they didn't think they had enough grounds to keep him?
Maybe they wanted to let him go in order to observe him and let him incriminating himself later?

The whole episode of breaking back into the office for some papers and keys (or whatever) also sounds far fetched. Yes it's feasible, but it's a bit of a strange act.
The police believe it was to try and make new marks at the window and have an 'excuse' for how they came to be there.

At this point, I'm starting to side with the police and think "JB, you're starting to act in a very dodgy fashion".

It's almost as if he was sure he'd gotten away with it, then suddenly went into panic most once he knew they were onto him

Offline TheBrilliantMistake

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 720
Re: Events after 7th September
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2011, 07:26:PM »
As for leaving the country, it's basically a matter of what the terms of bail are/were.

It's not a case of Bail = one set of rules.

At such an early stage, it would have had to have been Police bail (not Court bail) and I would imagine they'd have wanted to restrict his movement.

So I'm guessing no bail, or he broke the conditions. I don't recall there being a 'Bamber the fugitive' story coming out, so I'm guessing there were no charges at that time, and they chose to wait until they had a bit more evidence (AND time to catch him making mistakes)

According to wiki - he WAS bailed on 13th Sept
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 07:28:PM by TheBrilliantMistake »

Offline Kaldin

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6961
Re: Events after 7th September
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2011, 07:51:PM »
I suppose my question really is - why did Jeremy not try to sort out this mess instead of going on holiday? If Julie made up the story wouldn't he try to contact her to sort it out or was he told not to do that?

Online Roch

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17586
Re: Events after 7th September
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2011, 09:17:PM »
I suppose my question really is - why did Jeremy not try to sort out this mess instead of going on holiday? If Julie made up the story wouldn't he try to contact her to sort it out or was he told not to do that?

I was thinking about this before. Maybe he was interviewed in such a way as to make out that the police didn't believe her either... but had to 'follow up all leads' etc.  Maybe they wanted to know what his reaction would be and study his following actions.  'Give him enough rope and he'll hang himself'  'keep an eye on him from a distance' scenario. Pure speculation of course.

If he'd contacted her, would it have been witness intimidation? or does that only happen if you've been charged?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 09:54:PM by Rochford Dolly Peel »

Offline Kaldin

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6961
Re: Events after 7th September
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2011, 10:11:PM »
I suppose my question really is - why did Jeremy not try to sort out this mess instead of going on holiday? If Julie made up the story wouldn't he try to contact her to sort it out or was he told not to do that?

I was thinking about this before. Maybe he was interviewed in such a way as to make out that the police didn't believe her either... but had to 'follow up all leads' etc.  Maybe they wanted to know what his reaction would be and study his following actions.  'Give him enough rope and he'll hang himself'  'keep an eye on him from a distance' scenario. Pure speculation of course.

If he'd contacted her, would it have been witness intimidation? or does that only happen if you've been charged?

Well he hadn't been charged so I don't think it would have been witness intimidation. He'd only just broken up with her, and if she made the story up he must have been pretty annoyed about it - or puzzled at least.

Offline OnceSaid

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1198
Re: Events after 7th September
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2012, 01:00:PM »
I have some questions and comments about what happened after 7th September.

If I get any of this wrong, feel free to correct me.  ;D

As I understand it, Julie Mugford went to the police on 7th September and told them that Jeremy had hired a hitman to kill his family. Jeremy and Matthew McDonald were arrested on 8th September and interviewed for several days.

Were they in custody at this time?

Julie Mugford and Elizabeth Rimington stayed at some kind of police training school whilst they made their statements - that took until 12th September. What did they do after that?

Jeremy was bailed from the police station on 13th September, so what did he do? Did he attempt to contact Julie Mugford to ask her why on earth she had made up such stories about him? No, he went on holiday to the South of France after breaking into the farm to get some documents. He returned on 29th September and was arrested as soon as set foot in the UK. I presume he was remanded in custody after that.

Who did he go on holiday with?

I find it quite odd that he went on holiday. After all, his ex had just accused him of a heinous crime, and although he was released, you'd think he'd be worried and try to get to the bottom of it wouldn't you?

Was Julie Mugford under police protection or what?

Stan Jones would tell all and sundry that Julie knew ‘too much inside information’ for her story to be anything but the truth. Stan wasn’t aware, or chose to ignore, that all she was saying he had heard before – from the Eatons, Boutflours and Carrs.

It’s also a matter of interest that on the very morning of the tragedy, Julie Mugford was picked up by an as yet unidentified metropolitan police officer and brought to the Blackwall tunnel where she was handed over and brought to Colchester to meet up with Jeremy and the rest of the relatives. Despite a thorough investigation by City of London Police (COLP) in 1991, COLP were unable to identify the Metropolitan police officer who picked her up from her home address in London. What are the odds that Rob Carr was that police officer?

It happened to be on the very same day that relatives went to see the deputy Chief Constable (Peter Wright) to ask for the case to be reinvestigated that Julie Mugford decided to see the police. Same day too that Robert Boutflour started to type out his diary extracts, which contained all manner of suggestions as to why the family believed Jeremy had killed his family. (These so-called Diary Entries were later presented to the police and given an exhibit number RWB/1 but were never recorded in the police property books or presented in court; nor did Robert Boutflour refer to the contents of these Diary Entries in any of his witness statements.) What Julie Mugford had to say to the police was starkly similar to these writings. Call it a coincidence if you will. But not only does Julie Mugford and the Boutflour-Eaton stories gel too nicely together, both parties just happen to make the very same mistakes.
http://youknowwhokilledyoudontyou.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/innocent-man-part-8.html

Back in 1991 the City of London Police had investigated Essex Police they detailed a list of crimes which Julie had confessed to carrying out undetected These included, taking cannabis, selling cannabis, accessory to burglary at the caravan park, smuggling drugs back into the UK from Canada, and cheque book fraud. (11) Julie Mugford was never charged with any of these offences officially, but documents newly surfaced show that she was charged with burglary and this was withdrawn with permission from the DPP’s office, in the same document Julie is also advised she will be called as a prosecution witness. At the 2002 appeal the Defence put forward the suggestion that Julie Mugford and her friend and co-fraudster Susan Battersby had been given immunity from prosecution as a trade off for Julie’s testimony against Jeremy Bamber but the documents relating to this were under Public Interest Immunity. (12)

DCI Dickinson had interviewed Julie Mugford and her mother in 1986 after the trial but the interviews have never been disclosed to the Defence. The City of London Police suspected that Julie Mugford was given immunity from prosecution and after they followed the paper trail to the CPS they discovered that there were documents not to be disclosed to the Defence. Indeed the CPS had in their possession a file known as the “Confidential Crown Prosecution Service File relating to Julie Mugford and Trial preparation by Essex Police.” This file was passed to the Senior Crown Prosecutor known as Mr Stephen Swan. For the 2002 appeal the Metropolitan police tried to trace this file and took a statement from Mr Swan who stated that “I cannot remember who gave me the file, or who I gave it to after I had finished reading it.” The mystery remains: What happened to the confidential file and what was in it and is it right that the Defence should be denied access to these materials?

The Defence has also suggested that Julie’s statements were not written in the first person, senior police officers even questioned why she was writing in the third person. The grammar used in many of the statements is well below the standard of a student doing a degree at Masters level which further suggests that Julie didn’t write all of the statements herself. For example she told police “Matthew done it.” (13)  During the period when Julie and her friend gave statements she was put up by police at their training centre and claimed expenses.Quite incredibly she was also seen by DS Jones the principal detective in this case no less than 32 times. (14)

http://jeremybamber.org/julie-mugford/

Offline OnceSaid

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1198
Re: Events after 7th September
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2012, 01:08:PM »
http://twitpic.com/a3p4te

<a href="http://twitpic.com/a3p4te" title="Jeremy Bamber : Why was Julie Mugford&#039;s &#039;confession... on Twitpic"><img

-Harters-

  • Guest
Re: Events after 7th September
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2012, 01:35:PM »
http://twitpic.com/a3p4te

<a href="http://twitpic.com/a3p4te" title="Jeremy Bamber : Why was Julie Mugford&#039;s &#039;confession... on Twitpic"><img

Just for clarity:


Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: Events after 7th September
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2012, 02:18:PM »
DS Jones also accompanied JB to the hotel where the NOTW gave her the cheque. Apparently at that time,,word had spread of an affair between Jones and JM. Surprising what money does to a person,,,isn't it?
Whether there was ever any truth in the above,,,remains to be seen,,but to see someone 32 times makes one think does it not.?

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: Events after 7th September
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2012, 02:19:PM »
Why was JM paid out before the trial.?

Caroline R

  • Guest
Re: Events after 7th September
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2012, 03:07:PM »
DS Jones also accompanied JB to the hotel where the NOTW gave her the cheque. Apparently at that time,,word had spread of an affair between Jones and JM. Surprising what money does to a person,,,isn't it?
Whether there was ever any truth in the above,,,remains to be seen,,but to see someone 32 times makes one think does it not.?

You mean JM? All these initials get confusing :)