Author Topic: Going down the pan  (Read 16060 times)

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Offline Kaldin

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2011, 04:22:PM »
Oh and please do not think that I am making accusations towards anyone.The "third person",could be responsible scenario is just something that I am considering right now.So if I ask questions that have already been covered by you all,please accept my apologies.Its just that there is so much information on this site that it gives me a headache trying to wade through it all!
Whilst Im here.......does anyone have an explanation as to why (if RB and AE were pointing the finger toward JB from day one),why AE would be inside the farmhouse "having a good old clean up)almost from day one? On the one hand they were hunting around for evidence,but on the other hand they were cleaning it all away!The police search did not uncover the silencer,the relatives did.It is wholly possible that the silencer was "planted". It is possible that the phonecall to JB (if it did actually happen)was made under duress to in order to lure JB to the farm and a second phonecall to the police from the farm in order for the police to find JB at the scene and maybe suspect him.

Good question about the cleaning. It seems to me that Ann and Robert suspected Jeremy right from the start but Ann started cleaning the house as soon as she got access.

I still don't get why she was given the keys and not Jeremy, or why he let his relatives virtually take over the house. At that time it was none of their business what happened to the house.

I do have some admiration for them though - they thought he did it, and they didn't let up. That shows some gumption.

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2011, 04:26:PM »
It seems to me to have been perfectly plausible that sheila could have been responsible.After-all, highly experienced police officers certainly seemed to accept this based on what they saw and what information they had at the time.Until that is,that the relatives made a big song and dance about it!The relatives (despite not knowing sheila all that well) were absolutely adamant that shela did not carry out the murders.Why was this I wonder?Could they have known something that we dont? JB has been portrayed as money hungry and as having a dislike for his family.But similarly,the relatives were also money hungry and had a dislike for the Bambers.Lets not forget that JB would have inherited a large amount of money eventually anyway.Lets face it,his parents were no "spring chickens".both being the age of 61.Is it not true that Ralph was beginning to pass on more responsibility to JB, and (just an observation) Ralph may have been beginning to make preparations for retirement.Just reading RBs notes alone tell their own story as to what RB felt about JBs handling of the farm and of the Bamber money.If the murders had not took place,Id been interested to know what the relatives would have been due to receive from the Bambers will upon their natural deaths.

I don't know what they would have got if Jeremy had not been convicted. There seemed to be all kinds of things involved - shares in the caravan park, and all that.

Perhaps they wouldn't have got anything directly from the Bambers. After all, the Bambers had their own children and grandchildren to leave their money to so I don't see why they would leave it to other relatives.

I think some of them resented Jeremy having anything because the money originally came from June's family - the Speakmans. Family politics eh?  ;D

Robert Boutflour seemed to take it upon himself to make sure that his family got the dosh - what business it was of his I have no idea.

Hartley

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2011, 04:28:PM »
Was Peter Eaton involved in the farm business, ie a share holder or anything.

Just thinking out loud but as the house was part of the farm holding then it could have gone to him in that capacity. Just guessing, it doesn't make much sense otherwise.

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2011, 04:32:PM »
Was Peter Eaton involved in the farm business, ie a share holder or anything.

Just thinking out loud but as the house was part of the farm holding then it could have gone to him in that capacity. Just guessing, it doesn't make much sense otherwise.

I'm not sure -they all seemed to have fingers in pies all over the place, and they seemed very much tied to each other familywise. It all sounds a bit weird to me. I wonder why Jeremy wanted to be part of all that - sounds a bit claustrophobic to me, especially as his relatives didn't like him much.

The Bambers don't sound that rich to me anyway. I know it was 1985 but even so they weren't millionnaires or anything. I always thought the motive was dodgy.

chelmsey

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2011, 04:32:PM »
I am not wholly convinced of anyones innocence or guilt.I just cant get my head around the fact that the supposedly cool,calm and collected JB would carry out the murder,covering his tracks everywhere and then be stupid enough to just "pop" the silencer back into a cupboard and toddle off home.when it would have been so much easier and less time consuming to have taken it away and disposed of it.Surely he must have realised this error afterwards and lets face it,he had plenty of oppurtunity in the days after the murders to go back and retrieve it.!

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2011, 04:39:PM »
I am not wholly convinced of anyones innocence or guilt.I just cant get my head around the fact that the supposedly cool,calm and collected JB would carry out the murder,covering his tracks everywhere and then be stupid enough to just "pop" the silencer back into a cupboard and toddle off home.when it would have been so much easier and less time consuming to have taken it away and disposed of it.Surely he must have realised this error afterwards and lets face it,he had plenty of oppurtunity in the days after the murders to go back and retrieve it.!

I know! I think that too.

That's why I can't understand why he didn't object to his relatives having the keys and being all over the house. It wasn't their house, it was nothing to do with them what happened to it. You'd think he'd be paranoid they might find something against him, and also if he killed his family for money you'd think he'd kick the relatives out. They were there with Mr Cock, the executor, only a few days after the murders, and I don't understand why.

Robert Boutflour seemed to spend his time spying on Jeremy and his friends, and watching him removing "treasures" from the house, and at the same time running to the police every five minutes. I wonder if Jeremy knew he was being watched so closely and that his relatives were always talking to the police about him.

chelmsey

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2011, 04:41:PM »

I'm not sure -they all seemed to have fingers in pies all over the place, and they seemed very much tied to each other familywise. It all sounds a bit weird to me. I wonder why Jeremy wanted to be part of all that - sounds a bit claustrophobic to me, especially as his relatives didn't like him much.

This is the thing!I dont think JB wanted to be part of it at all!It has been said that not long after the murders,that JB was beginning to talk about selling off parcels of land.Farming wasnt JBs thing.It wouldnt have surprised me if hed have got rid of the lot.apart from maybe the caravan park.I get the impression he was more interested in the bright lights of London and partying etc than settling down to a farmers life.Its obvious the relatives were aware of this and did not take too kindly too it.

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2011, 04:44:PM »

I'm not sure -they all seemed to have fingers in pies all over the place, and they seemed very much tied to each other familywise. It all sounds a bit weird to me. I wonder why Jeremy wanted to be part of all that - sounds a bit claustrophobic to me, especially as his relatives didn't like him much.

This is the thing!I dont think JB wanted to be part of it at all!It has been said that not long after the murders,that JB was beginning to talk about selling off parcels of land.Farming wasnt JBs thing.It wouldnt have surprised me if hed have got rid of the lot.apart from maybe the caravan park.I get the impression he was more interested in the bright lights of London and partying etc than settling down to a farmers life.Its obvious the relatives were aware of this and did not take too kindly too it.

Yes. I'm surprised he worked at the farm at all and lived in a village in the sticks of Essex. He had friends in London and he could have done anything apart from farming.

It sounds as if the relatives thought of the dosh as theirs because some of it came from the Speakmans originally. There certainly seemed to be some indecent haste to find out if they could get hold of the money and any property going. It sounds like Mrs Speakman was pursuaded to change her will even before he'd been arrested and before there was any evidence that he did it.

chelmsey

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2011, 04:49:PM »
sorry - my last post was in answer to somebody elses quote.If JB was so interested in the farm,then why did he put Peter Eaton in to manage it?I bet he cold kick himself now  for that seeings as he now knows what they were all up to behind his back!I have read somewhere that RB was a freemason.If this is true then that would explain a hell of alot of things to me regarding the turnaround of the investigation,JBs subsequent conviction and non-winning of any appeals !!!

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2011, 04:51:PM »
sorry - my last post was in answer to somebody elses quote.If JB was so interested in the farm,then why did he put Peter Eaton in to manage it?I bet he cold kick himself now  for that seeings as he now knows what they were all up to behind his back!I have read somewhere that RB was a freemason.If this is true then that would explain a hell of alot of things to me regarding the turnaround of the investigation,JBs subsequent conviction and non-winning of any appeals !!!

Did Jeremy ask Peter Eaton to manage the farm?

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2011, 04:56:PM »
Robert Boutflour also tried to implicate Brett Collins in the murders. Did he speak to Brett Collins' brother?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=460.0;attach=1415;image

Offline TheBrilliantMistake

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2011, 04:58:PM »
I'm not sure this is entirely representative.

Yes Police had been told Jeremy had called through the call, and that his sister had gone mad etc etc.

So it's perfectly rational, at the scene of the crime, finding the bodies and sheila holding the gun etc etc to still buy into this story.

It's been noted that SOME officers thought something wasn't quite right, but this has to be put down to hearsay really (until officially proven).

So, the real problems didn't start then - they started when the 'gathering of evidence' didn't wipe the slate clean of all assumption, but continued to assume 'it must be true'.
For whatever reason (trying to minimise the impact on the family / good taste, or trying to cover something up) the Police did the basics, but no more than that.

In the meantime, SOME family members started raising questions. Not all of them. And it's probably unfair to say they didn't know the family well. They were Aunts and Uncles (largely) of Jeremy and Sheila and arguably would know Jeremy better than Colin Caffell.
It could be argued that Colin most likely knew Sheila best (other than Jeremy, June or Nevill) and it could be argued that Julie knew Jeremy best other than Sheila, June or Nevill) - it's a very subjective topic about who knew who best, but I don't think it's reasonable to think Jeremy wasn't particularly well known to them - they'd have seen him growing up, but as a young man, Julie would have become closer to him, obviously.

Anyway, regardless of that, the relatives didn't stand to gain much at all - at least not directly, BUT there were complications where yes, some of them would benefit. There's certainly a motive there, but not quite as 'we get all the money if we frame him' style.
There's a motive for Mugford too.
A motive for Sheila
and a motive for Jeremy.

Now if the family set out to frame him, OR add to the evidence, because they thought he was guilty anyway, then they would still have to get Mugford on their side too and invent a lie. OR they got very lucky and Mugford lied as a result of her grudge too.
So it took two distinct parties to either collude, or BOTH independently want to frame him.

Given the family's suspicions, and yes, prodding the police to take it more seriously AND finding the silencer, the police where then forced to start looking at Bamber.
They COULD (and some say DID) try not to investigate too hard, because they had already assumed suicide and didn't want to look bad, or didn't want to stir up trouble in an already broken family. However, in the end, their hand was forced and they started investigating / watching Bamber.

Bamber may very well have been grieving 'in his own way'. And if that way meant weekends abroad with Julie, or being fairly lavish with money, so be it.... BUT, it did little to give the impression of being grief stricken. Nor did his auctioning of items from the farm and from his sister's Maida Vale flat.

There's nothing wrong with what he did. It doesn't make anybody guilty for clearing out a flat of valuables and selling some, BUT as stated earlier, it certainly doesn't look great (and yes, I can hear the argument that says if he was guilty why would he draw attention to himself like that?).

Now, as all this was starting to unfold, the police where doing forensics on the gun and the bodies.
It's here where the suicide theory started to look a little less strong (but NOT disproven) - the absence of residue on her hands that would normally be associated with firing 25 rounds and loaded a gun at least twice). A seeming cleanliness to her feet that didn't seem as though she'd wandered around a house and massacred 4 others. Two wounds to her head/neck which whilst possible to survive one, still seemed 'unusual'.

Then there was the silencer and the blood on and within it, found put away downstairs.... perfectly possible to do with Sheila's injuries (IF she was still able after her first shot)... and the seeming "unusual thing to do, put away the silencer before killing yourself".

There was Jeremy's calls which he couldn't prove, and calls to Julie that could be proved, but the contents of which only known by Jeremy and Julie...




If you take any one point, it can be explained away - Sheila washed, that's why she was clean. Sheila shot herself, moved around a bit, then shot herself again. Sheila was seen on the kitchen floor, woke up, moved upstairs when the police were in the house and then shot herself etc etc...

But when you try to add them all up, the chances of them all happening get slimmer and slimmer each time.

I have to say, it's perfectly possible that numerous 'unlikely' events can all happen on the same night and afterwards - just because it's a million to one, doesn't mean it can't happen.

The vast majority of the evidence against Jeremy isn't forensic. There's actually nothing to put him at the scene. The forensic evidence is more geared towards suggesting Sheila didn't do it (than it is towards Jeremy having done it).
Jeremy therefore becomes the prime suspect by default - since there are only two ways he could know about the trouble at the farm - a) Because sheila did it and all that Jeremy said was true..... or b) He did it, or knew who had (hitman).

The evidence probably gave (say) a 60% jeremy did it, and 40% sheila.

What ultimately finished Jeremy off his actions after the deaths (which in themselves don't make him guilty) AND Mugford's testimony that he'd told her he hired a hitman.

The actions of Bamber after the deaths probably tipped the balance of guilt to 75% Jeremy 25% Sheila.

The 'confession' as told by Mugford shifted it again to 95% Jeremy 5% Sheila.

seeing the photos at the trial, and the anecdotal witness statements AND manner of Bamber in general (self assured, cocky) probably put the odds at 99% Jeremy, 1% Sheila.

The jury returned a verdict of guilty by a majority of 10:2, so all in all he did quite well - just not well enough.




chochokeira

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2011, 05:00:PM »
regarding the question of "would he be acquitted today?"

It is my belief he would not -  and here is why:

1) The evidence presented in court originally, has, to the best of my knowledge remained intact (in terms of fact/findings, rather than physical state!)

2) Subsequent DNA testing on the moderator has shed some new light on the likely source of DNA found, but does has not been able to discount it being a murder weapon. It has only served to suggest the origin of DNA found was likely to be June Bamber.

3) Arguably THE most crucial piece of evidence was the testimony of Julie Mugford, and, rightly or wrongly, the original jury found her to be a credible witness, since they accepted her testimony as being true.

Given the gravity of the evidence provided by Miss Mugford (as was then), there has since been no reason to raise doubt, or form a new opinion on the credibility of her, or the validity of her testimony.
Essentially, the decision of the jury then was sound, and remains so. One cannot simply 'change their minds' about Miss Mugford at a whim.

Now, with regard to new evidence coming to light, much of it has been of a nature that to put it mildly, is tenuous at best, and at worst, bordering on being vexatious.
There are numerous cases of where "one witness said this, and another said that". This does not amount to a conspiracy to conceal or falsify evidence. It is a typical of a case of this nature to have contradiction in witness testimony, or occasional mistakes in logs and suchlike, regrettable as that may be, this too does not amount to, or even indicate conspiracy.

All in all, no new evidence has come forward that substantially deviates from the evidence provided at trial. Whilst we might have a little more clarity here and there, the same material circumstances and likely scenarios presented at the original trial remain the same.

Therefore. The same verdict would must likely be reached.

A nice piece of rewriting of the evidence and history, TBM: unfortunately it does not reflect the facts of the case. Your account attempts to gloss over thousands of pieces of withheld evidence as mere incidentals. However, the essence of the injustice in this case is:

that the evidence presented at court was never intact,

that it was minus a substantial body of important data,

that key evidence was withheld by EP for up to 25 years

that this body of data makes JB's conviction unsafe

that justice therefore demands that JB has a fair retrial or fair Appeal.

chelmsey

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2011, 05:05:PM »
Was Peter Eaton involved in the farm business, ie a share holder or anything.

Just thinking out loud but as the house was part of the farm holding then it could have gone to him in that capacity. Just guessing, it doesn't make much sense otherwise.

As far as I know he wasnt involved in any of the Bamber buisness.Whf and its farmland was not and is not owned by the Bambers.It is leased from a charity.

Offline Kaldin

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Re: Going down the pan
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2011, 05:07:PM »
I wasn't suggesting that the relatives didn't know Jeremy, merely that they may not have known Sheila that well. She went to London when she was pretty young, married when she was young too, and stayed in London even when the marriage broke up. She didn't sound like a farming sort of person really.

I'm really just musing about the background to these murders more than anything, and wondering why Jeremy let his relatives take over the house if he killed his family for the dosh. Did he really have no idea that they suspected him?