Ballistics could not tell if bullets fired through Silencer?

[Kaldin]

Blood was not found inside internal thread of silencer...

I said DNA, not blood. It was the opinion of one of the experts that Sheila's DNA was inside the silencer, and you have agreed, so let's move on.

... I do not agree with what you are implying, since, there was no DNA belonging to Shiela found anywhere inside the silenber where any blood was seen or found by anyone, at any stage. Some Dna was found on an internal screw thread, but there can be no suggestion that it got there at the time of the shootings, because the internal thread of the silencer, was screwed air tight onto the external thread on the end of the guns barrel - with the silencer fitted to the gun in this way, it would be nigh on impossible, for any blood or DNA, to get onto the thread of the silencer. Any DNA found there in that part of the silencer could only have got there, by a process of innocent, or accidental contamination. It is wrong for anyone to try and suggest that Shiela's DNA could have got into the silencer at the time she was shot and killed...

Seven swabs were taken of the inside of the silencer, and five of those showed components of Sheila's DNA. It's not clear where those swabs were from but I doubt they were all from the internal screw thread.

[mike tesko]

Blood was not found inside internal thread of silencer...

I said DNA, not blood. It was the opinion of one of the experts that Sheila's DNA was inside the silencer, and you have agreed, so let's move on.

... I do not agree with what you are implying, since, there was no DNA belonging to Shiela found anywhere inside the silenber where any blood was seen or found by anyone, at any stage. Some Dna was found on an internal screw thread, but there can be no suggestion that it got there at the time of the shootings, because the internal thread of the silencer, was screwed air tight onto the external thread on the end of the guns barrel - with the silencer fitted to the gun in this way, it would be nigh on impossible, for any blood or DNA, to get onto the thread of the silencer. Any DNA found there in that part of the silencer could only have got there, by a process of innocent, or accidental contamination. It is wrong for anyone to try and suggest that Shiela's DNA could have got into the silencer at the time she was shot and killed...

Seven swabs were taken of the inside of the silencer, and five of those showed components of Sheila's DNA. It's not clear where those swabs were from but I doubt they were all from the internal screw thread.

... I have got all the lab' file as per the dna profiling, of the silencer and its baffle plates, and the inverted thread I have been talking about, and I can assure everyone that none of Shiela's dna was found on any baffle plate. The only dna which could remotely be associated with Shiela, was found in the screw thread - nowhere else.,

[Kaldin]

... I have got all the lab' file as per the dna profiling, of the silencer and its baffle plates, and the inverted thread I have been talking about, and I can assure everyone that none of Shiela's dna was found on any baffle plate. The only dna which could remotely be associated with Shiela, was found in the screw thread - nowhere else.,

I'm not talking about the baffles. Are you suggesting that the seven swabs were all taken from the screw thread?

[mike tesko]

... I have got all the lab' file as per the dna profiling, of the silencer and its baffle plates, and the inverted thread I have been talking about, and I can assure everyone that none of Shiela's dna was found on any baffle plate. The only dna which could remotely be associated with Shiela, was found in the screw thread - nowhere else.,

I'm not talking about the baffles. Are you suggesting that the seven swabs were all taken from the screw thread?

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The only place inside the silencer that any DNA that could be linked or associated with Sheila was found inside the inverted screw thread end, no other DNA evidence that could be linked to her was found anywhere else  inside the silencer...

What you have been saying is misleading and inaccurate...

[Reader]

Where did you get the information about the number of swabs, Kaldin?

[Kaldin]

Where did you get the information about the number of swabs, Kaldin?

From the appeal document, Paras 493/494. Perhaps I've misunderstood - it is rather detailed and complicated.

Since the CCRC referred this case to the court, further DNA testing has taken place of other parts of the moderator. Seven swabbings have been taken from internal parts of the moderator apart from the baffles. All seven results indicated that DNA from more than one person was present. The results were complex and incomplete and it was not possible to determine how many people had contributed to the DNA from the mixture. The predominant contribution appeared to have come from a female or females.

When comparisons were possible, components matching Sheila Caffell's DNA profile were detected in five of these seven results. The other two results also contained components which matched those of Sheila Caffell, but not at all of the ten areas of DNA tested where information was available for comparison.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.htm

[Kaldin]

... I have got all the lab' file as per the dna profiling, of the silencer and its baffle plates, and the inverted thread I have been talking about, and I can assure everyone that none of Shiela's dna was found on any baffle plate. The only dna which could remotely be associated with Shiela, was found in the screw thread - nowhere else.,

I'm not talking about the baffles. Are you suggesting that the seven swabs were all taken from the screw thread?

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The only place inside the silencer that any DNA that could be linked or associated with Sheila was found inside the inverted screw thread end, no other DNA evidence that could be linked to her was found anywhere else  inside the silencer...

What you have been saying is misleading and inaccurate...

Perhaps you could summarise ground 15 in the 2002 appeal then?

[mike tesko]

503

74.   Ms Grombridge reports that DNA has been detected throughout the sound moderator and states that some of the DNA within the sound moderator could have originated from Sheila Caffell.

75.   Plainly, the distribution of DNA detected does not reflect the distribution of blood originally present within the sound moderator. For example, DNA has been detected on baffles 13-17 where no blood had previously been detected.

76.   Therefore, some action not necessarily associated with the deposition of blood must have caused DNA to be transferred to various areas of the sound moderator, including DNA that could possibly have originated from Sheila Caffell.

77.   There appears to have been many opportunities for DNA from a variety of sources to be deposited on and in the sound moderator and for DNA to be transferred between different areas of the sound moderator as a result of the way the sound moderator was handled after the incident."

------------------------------

I have previously pointed out that the silencer was contaminated as a result of mishandling by various persons, after its discovery, in particular, at the time of the unofficial test firing of the bloodstained rifle, silencer and control ammunition, and that at this time blood which lined the barrel of the bloodstained rifle was blasted into the silencer, in front of, behind and carried upon control bullets fired via the weapon at that stage...

Of course, not only blood could have contaminated the inside of the silencer at that time - but also DNA...

[Kaldin]

So you do concede that Sheila's DNA may have been in the silencer then. How it got there is a matter of opinion. I therefore don't think that what I said was misleading as I was merely going on the opinion of an expert witness.

[mike tesko]

So you do concede that Sheila's DNA may have been in the silencer then. How it got there is a matter of opinion. I therefore don't think that what I said was misleading as I was merely going on the opinion of an expert witness.

---------------------------------

No, I don't concede, because there are varying comments thrown around in the judgement, including others that say there was no evidence of Sheila's DNA inside the silencer, example:-

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478 -  the results of these tests were that the DNA in the silencer could  not have come from Sheila Caffell...

479 -  the commission consider that the absence of Sheila Caffells DNA is significant

497 (ii) Sheila Caffells DNA may have been in the sound moderator but it was not possible to conclude one way or the other whether it was...

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It should also be noted that although there is reference to seven swabs that were taken, it does not specify exactly whereabouts in the silencer, other than by excluding baffle plates, that these swabs were taken from - my suggestion is that the internal thread of the silencer was tested and some DNA found there which could have originated from Sheila...

It is possible that some of Sheila's DNA got into the silencer at the time of unofficial test firings of control bullet that took place before 20th September 1985, as described by me p

[Kaldin]

So you do concede that Sheila's DNA may have been in the silencer then. How it got there is a matter of opinion. I therefore don't think that what I said was misleading as I was merely going on the opinion of an expert witness.

---------------------------------

No, I don't concede, because there are varying comments thrown around in the judgement, including others that say there was no evidence of Sheila's DNA inside the silencer, example:-

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

478 -  the results of these tests were that the DNA in the silencer could  not have come from Sheila Caffell...

479 -  the commission consider that the absence of Sheila Caffells DNA is significant

497 (ii) Sheila Caffells DNA may have been in the sound moderator but it was not possible to conclude one way or the other whether it was...

------------------------------------------------

It should also be noted that although there is reference to seven swabs that were taken, it does not specify exactly whereabouts in the silencer, other than by excluding baffle plates, that these swabs were taken from - my suggestion is that the internal thread of the silencer was tested and some DNA found there which could have originated from Sheila...

It is possible that some of Sheila's DNA got into the silencer at the time of unofficial test firings of control bullet that took place before 20th September 1985, as described by me p

The result which showed that the DNA could not have come from Sheila was from an earlier test. The fact remains that Miss Groombridge took the view that Sheila's DNA was in the silencer. I'm not necessarily agreeing with her, but it's incorrect to state that Sheila's DNA was definitely not in there.

So you are suggesting that all seven swabs came from the internal thread then. I doubt that.

[mike tesko]

So you do concede that Sheila's DNA may have been in the silencer then. How it got there is a matter of opinion. I therefore don't think that what I said was misleading as I was merely going on the opinion of an expert witness.

---------------------------------

No, I don't concede, because there are varying comments thrown around in the judgement, including others that say there was no evidence of Sheila's DNA inside the silencer, example:-

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

478 -  the results of these tests were that the DNA in the silencer could  not have come from Sheila Caffell...

479 -  the commission consider that the absence of Sheila Caffells DNA is significant

497 (ii) Sheila Caffells DNA may have been in the sound moderator but it was not possible to conclude one way or the other whether it was...

------------------------------------------------

It should also be noted that although there is reference to seven swabs that were taken, it does not specify exactly whereabouts in the silencer, other than by excluding baffle plates, that these swabs were taken from - my suggestion is that the internal thread of the silencer was tested and some DNA found there which could have originated from Sheila...

It is possible that some of Sheila's DNA got into the silencer at the time of unofficial test firings of control bullet that took place before 20th September 1985, as described by me p

The result which showed that the DNA could not have come from Sheila was from an earlier test. The fact remains that Miss Groombridge took the view that Sheila's DNA was in the silencer. I'm not necessarily agreeing with her, but it's incorrect to state that Sheila's DNA was definitely not in there.

So you are suggesting that all seven swabs came from the internal thread then. I doubt that.

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Appellate judges rejected the later tests results, stating that there was no evidence either way to prove or confirm that Sheila's DNA was found inside the silencer - does this mean that we have to accept what Groombridge said, despite it being rejected by the judgement?

There is no published record where these seven additional swabs were taken from, other than they were not taken from Baffle plates...

[Kaldin]

So you do concede that Sheila's DNA may have been in the silencer then. How it got there is a matter of opinion. I therefore don't think that what I said was misleading as I was merely going on the opinion of an expert witness.

---------------------------------

No, I don't concede, because there are varying comments thrown around in the judgement, including others that say there was no evidence of Sheila's DNA inside the silencer, example:-

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

478 -  the results of these tests were that the DNA in the silencer could  not have come from Sheila Caffell...

479 -  the commission consider that the absence of Sheila Caffells DNA is significant

497 (ii) Sheila Caffells DNA may have been in the sound moderator but it was not possible to conclude one way or the other whether it was...

------------------------------------------------

It should also be noted that although there is reference to seven swabs that were taken, it does not specify exactly whereabouts in the silencer, other than by excluding baffle plates, that these swabs were taken from - my suggestion is that the internal thread of the silencer was tested and some DNA found there which could have originated from Sheila...

It is possible that some of Sheila's DNA got into the silencer at the time of unofficial test firings of control bullet that took place before 20th September 1985, as described by me p

The result which showed that the DNA could not have come from Sheila was from an earlier test. The fact remains that Miss Groombridge took the view that Sheila's DNA was in the silencer. I'm not necessarily agreeing with her, but it's incorrect to state that Sheila's DNA was definitely not in there.

So you are suggesting that all seven swabs came from the internal thread then. I doubt that.

-------------------------------------

Appellate judges rejected the later tests results, stating that there was no evidence either way to prove or confirm that Sheila's DNA was found inside the silencer - does this mean that we have to accept what Groombridge said, despite it being rejected by the judgement?

There is no published record where these seven additional swabs were taken from, other than they were not taken from Baffle plates...

They didn't think it was certain that it was Sheila's DNA, and yet they still rejected the appeal. I think that's because they weren't certain that her DNA was not in there. I was quite surprised that ground of the appeal failed to be honest. If June's DNA was found in there it's reasonable to assume that her blood was in there too, and yet they didn't seem convinced of that.

[mike tesko]

So you do concede that Sheila's DNA may have been in the silencer then. How it got there is a matter of opinion. I therefore don't think that what I said was misleading as I was merely going on the opinion of an expert witness.

---------------------------------

No, I don't concede, because there are varying comments thrown around in the judgement, including others that say there was no evidence of Sheila's DNA inside the silencer, example:-

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

478 -  the results of these tests were that the DNA in the silencer could  not have come from Sheila Caffell...

479 -  the commission consider that the absence of Sheila Caffells DNA is significant

497 (ii) Sheila Caffells DNA may have been in the sound moderator but it was not possible to conclude one way or the other whether it was...

------------------------------------------------

It should also be noted that although there is reference to seven swabs that were taken, it does not specify exactly whereabouts in the silencer, other than by excluding baffle plates, that these swabs were taken from - my suggestion is that the internal thread of the silencer was tested and some DNA found there which could have originated from Sheila...

It is possible that some of Sheila's DNA got into the silencer at the time of unofficial test firings of control bullet that took place before 20th September 1985, as described by me p

The result which showed that the DNA could not have come from Sheila was from an earlier test. The fact remains that Miss Groombridge took the view that Sheila's DNA was in the silencer. I'm not necessarily agreeing with her, but it's incorrect to state that Sheila's DNA was definitely not in there.

So you are suggesting that all seven swabs came from the internal thread then. I doubt that.

-------------------------------------

Appellate judges rejected the later tests results, stating that there was no evidence either way to prove or confirm that Sheila's DNA was found inside the silencer - does this mean that we have to accept what Groombridge said, despite it being rejected by the judgement?

There is no published record where these seven additional swabs were taken from, other than they were not taken from Baffle plates...

They didn't think it was certain that it was Sheila's DNA, and yet they still rejected the appeal. I think that's because they weren't certain that her DNA was not in there. I was quite surprised that ground of the appeal failed to be honest. If June's DNA was found in there it's reasonable to assume that her blood was in there too, and yet they didn't seem convinced of that.

-----------------------------

The way I see it, there is a perfectly simple explanation for how the blood got into the silencer, and how the DNA from one or more of the victims could have got ion there as well. The judgement from the 2002 appeal makes it clear that it accepts that the silencer was contaminated by DNA because of mishandling, well my point is this, if you can contaminate the silencer with DNA because of mishandling of the silencer, then of course, the silencer can be contaminated with blood through mishandling. I have already given a few examples of how this occurred, and because it was possible for these things to have happened, the silencer / blood based evidence should really not have been allowed in as legitimate evidence...

Silencer evidence is dodgy...

[Kaldin]

The way I see it, there is a perfectly simple explanation for how the blood got into the silencer, and how the DNA from one or more of the victims could have got ion there as well. The judgement from the 2002 appeal makes it clear that it accepts that the silencer was contaminated by DNA because of mishandling, well my point is this, if you can contaminate the silencer with DNA because of mishandling of the silencer, then of course, the silencer can be contaminated with blood through mishandling. I have already given a few examples of how this occurred, and because it was possible for these things to have happened, the silencer / blood based evidence should really not have been allowed in as legitimate evidence...

Silencer evidence is dodgy...

I agree that it's dodgy - not least because they were testing for DNA on an object that had been handled many times by many people. The sticking point is that the flake of blood which showed Sheila's blood group was no longer available for DNA testing.

I asked this before but I don't think you replied. Do you know why they had details of Robert Boutflour's blood group?