Ballistics could not tell if bullets fired through Silencer?

[mike tesko]

I think it's a very reasonable assumption that IF JB did it, he'd have attempted to clean the silencer. Perhaps badly, hurriedly and in poor light (possibly), but I can't believe he'd make NO attempt at all.

... None of Shiela's blood on the silencer, and non of her DNA...

[Hartley]

I think it's a very reasonable assumption that IF JB did it, he'd have attempted to clean the silencer. Perhaps badly, hurriedly and in poor light (possibly), but I can't believe he'd make NO attempt at all.

... None of Shiela's blood on the silencer, and non of her DNA...

This is from the 2002 Appeal Judgement:

75. Traces of blood in the form of smears were found in three places on the outside of the moderator: on the flat surface at the muzzle end, in the knurled end and in the ridge at the gun end of the device. The blood on the outside of the moderator was confirmed to be of human origin but there were insufficient quantities to permit grouping analysis.

76. Inside the moderator, on the four or five baffles nearest to the end from which the bullet would exit, there was a considerable amount of blood. At one point blood had pooled to form a flake when it dried, and this flake was subjected to group testing. Results were obtained for four of the five tests performed. Mr Hayward, the forensic scientist said that they showed that the blood could have come from Sheila Caffell but not from any of the other individuals involved. Mr. Hayward said that there was a possibility that the blood could be a mixture of blood from more than one person and if it was, a mixture of blood from Nevill Bamber and June Bamber could account for the findings in the grouping tests. However he judged that possibility to be a “remote” one.

[Kaldin]

Were there were other contact wounds on some of the other victims?

There was a possibility that there was a contact shot to June, and the shots to Nicholas were contact shots or close.

So would you not expect to find blood from Sheila, Nicholas and possibly June either in/on the barrel or in/on the moderator?

I have no idea. They did find June's DNA in the silencer, so that could have been from blood. They also found DNA from a male person.

I'm just saying that they couldn't tell at the time whose blood it was on the outside of the silencer. It could have been Nevill's if he was struck with the gun.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Were there were other contact wounds on some of the other victims?

There was a possibility that there was a contact shot to June, and the shots to Nicholas were contact shots or close.

So would you not expect to find blood from Sheila, Nicholas and possibly June either in/on the barrel or in/on the moderator?

I have no idea. They did find June's DNA in the silencer, so that could have been from blood. They also found DNA from a male person.

I'm just saying that they couldn't tell at the time whose blood it was on the outside of the silencer. It could have been Nevill's if he was struck with the gun.

They didn't categorically say it was June's DNA (from memory) but it was about 1 in 3000 chance of it not being her (they had to match against her sister) which isn't ideal, since in theory her sister could have a 100% difference in genes, or even a 100% match, but on 'average' - 50% matching genes

[Kaldin]

Were there were other contact wounds on some of the other victims?

There was a possibility that there was a contact shot to June, and the shots to Nicholas were contact shots or close.

So would you not expect to find blood from Sheila, Nicholas and possibly June either in/on the barrel or in/on the moderator?

I have no idea. They did find June's DNA in the silencer, so that could have been from blood. They also found DNA from a male person.

I'm just saying that they couldn't tell at the time whose blood it was on the outside of the silencer. It could have been Nevill's if he was struck with the gun.

They didn't categorically say it was June's DNA (from memory) but it was about 1 in 3000 chance of it not being her (they had to match against her sister) which isn't ideal, since in theory her sister could have a 100% difference in genes, or even a 100% match, but on 'average' - 50% matching genes

True. It wasn't for sure, but the appeal judges accepted it was June's DNA. They had to really as the police had managed to destroy the blood evidence so they had to give Jeremy the benefit of the doubt.

[mike tesko]

Were there were other contact wounds on some of the other victims?

There was a possibility that there was a contact shot to June, and the shots to Nicholas were contact shots or close.

So would you not expect to find blood from Sheila, Nicholas and possibly June either in/on the barrel or in/on the moderator?

I have no idea. They did find June's DNA in the silencer, so that could have been from blood. They also found DNA from a male person.

I'm just saying that they couldn't tell at the time whose blood it was on the outside of the silencer. It could have been Nevill's if he was struck with the gun.

They didn't categorically say it was June's DNA (from memory) but it was about 1 in 3000 chance of it not being her (they had to match against her sister) which isn't ideal, since in theory her sister could have a 100% difference in genes, or even a 100% match, but on 'average' - 50% matching genes

... But they eliminated any lingering doubts that the DNA could have been Shiela's...

[Kaldin]

Were there were other contact wounds on some of the other victims?

There was a possibility that there was a contact shot to June, and the shots to Nicholas were contact shots or close.

So would you not expect to find blood from Sheila, Nicholas and possibly June either in/on the barrel or in/on the moderator?

I have no idea. They did find June's DNA in the silencer, so that could have been from blood. They also found DNA from a male person.

I'm just saying that they couldn't tell at the time whose blood it was on the outside of the silencer. It could have been Nevill's if he was struck with the gun.

They didn't categorically say it was June's DNA (from memory) but it was about 1 in 3000 chance of it not being her (they had to match against her sister) which isn't ideal, since in theory her sister could have a 100% difference in genes, or even a 100% match, but on 'average' - 50% matching genes

... But they eliminated any lingering doubts that the DNA could have been Shiela's...

They did at first, but then one of them said her DNA was maybe found in the silencer after all when more tests were done. Bit confusing to be honest.

[mike tesko]

Were there were other contact wounds on some of the other victims?

There was a possibility that there was a contact shot to June, and the shots to Nicholas were contact shots or close.

So would you not expect to find blood from Sheila, Nicholas and possibly June either in/on the barrel or in/on the moderator?

I have no idea. They did find June's DNA in the silencer, so that could have been from blood. They also found DNA from a male person.

I'm just saying that they couldn't tell at the time whose blood it was on the outside of the silencer. It could have been Nevill's if he was struck with the gun.

They didn't categorically say it was June's DNA (from memory) but it was about 1 in 3000 chance of it not being her (they had to match against her sister) which isn't ideal, since in theory her sister could have a 100% difference in genes, or even a 100% match, but on 'average' - 50% matching genes

... But they eliminated any lingering doubts that the DNA could have been Shiela's...

They did at first, but then one of them said her DNA was maybe found in the silencer after all when more tests were done. Bit confusing to be honest.

------------------

No, Sheila's DNA was not found inside the silencer, on any baffle plate where any blood was / may have previously been seen / found. I strongly dispute such a suggestion, because that is not strictly true...

Lets get the facts right, so that there can be no mistake about this point - some DNA was found to be present upon the inverted thread, inside the silencer that screws onto the external thread of a guns barrel. How it got there has never official been discussed or explained, but it seems odds on, that it got there purely by accidental or innocent contamination -  when the police were moving the guns barrel around upon Sheila's neck / throat, which was the very occasion that Sheila's DNA was put onto the end of the barrel of that gun...

You then have various police officers screwing the silencer onto the end of the guns barrel, (PC Whidon, and DI Cook) before the silencer was even sent to the Lab',  on 30th August 1985, brought about because Sheila's DNA that was present on the external thread on the end of the guns barrel, was fitted internally to the silencer, by screwing the threads of both together in an airtight fashion, which forced Sheila's DNA by dynamic process, into the silencer where it was eventually found in and by 2002...

There is nothing difficult in trying to fathom out how Sheila's DNA got into the silencer, since it was not discovered there in that part of the silencer until 2002, long after the silencer was put at risk of contamination by the police, and the ballistics expert, Fletcher, and others...

in my opinion...

[Kaldin]

No, Sheila's DNA was not found inside the silencer, on any baffle plate where any blood was / may have previously been seen / found. I strongly dispute such a suggestion, because that is not strictly true...

Lets get the facts right, so that there can be no mistake about this point - some DNA was found to be present upon the inverted thread, inside the silencer that screws onto the external thread of a guns barrel. How it got there has never official been discussed or explained, but it seems odds on, that it got there purely by accidental or innocent contamination -  when the police were moving the guns barrel around upon Sheila's neck / throat, which was the very occasion that Sheila's DNA was put onto the end of the barrel of that gun...

You then have various police officers screwing the silencer onto the end of the guns barrel, (PC Whidon, and DI Cook) before the silencer was even sent to the Lab',  on 30th August 1985, brought about because Sheila's DNA that was present on the external thread on the end of the guns barrel, was fitted internally to the silencer, by screwing the threads of both together in an airtight fashion, which forced Sheila's DNA by dynamic process, into the silencer where it was eventually found in and by 2002...

There is nothing difficult in trying to fathom out how Sheila's DNA got into the silencer, since it was not discovered there in that part of the silencer until 2002, long after the silencer was put at risk of contamination by the police, and the ballistics expert, Fletcher, and others...

in my opinion...

One of the prosecution experts said that in her opinion Sheila's DNA was in the silencer.

Anyhow, the appeal judges conceded that it was not possible to conclude if it was in there or not. It seems to me that the appeal judges rejected that ground because a lot of the blood from the silencer was no longer available - that was hardly Jeremy's fault.

At the trial it was conceded that the blood in the silencer could be a mixture of June and Nevill's. Did they test the blood grouping of Nicholas Caffell? As the shots to his head were contact ones or very close, one might expect his blood to be in the silencer rather than Nevill's. 

[mike tesko]

No, Sheila's DNA was not found inside the silencer, on any baffle plate where any blood was / may have previously been seen / found. I strongly dispute such a suggestion, because that is not strictly true...

Lets get the facts right, so that there can be no mistake about this point - some DNA was found to be present upon the inverted thread, inside the silencer that screws onto the external thread of a guns barrel. How it got there has never official been discussed or explained, but it seems odds on, that it got there purely by accidental or innocent contamination -  when the police were moving the guns barrel around upon Sheila's neck / throat, which was the very occasion that Sheila's DNA was put onto the end of the barrel of that gun...

You then have various police officers screwing the silencer onto the end of the guns barrel, (PC Whidon, and DI Cook) before the silencer was even sent to the Lab',  on 30th August 1985, brought about because Sheila's DNA that was present on the external thread on the end of the guns barrel, was fitted internally to the silencer, by screwing the threads of both together in an airtight fashion, which forced Sheila's DNA by dynamic process, into the silencer where it was eventually found in and by 2002...

There is nothing difficult in trying to fathom out how Sheila's DNA got into the silencer, since it was not discovered there in that part of the silencer until 2002, long after the silencer was put at risk of contamination by the police, and the ballistics expert, Fletcher, and others...

in my opinion...

One of the prosecution experts said that in her opinion Sheila's DNA was in the silencer.

Anyhow, the appeal judges conceded that it was not possible to conclude if it was in there or not. It seems to me that the appeal judges rejected that ground because a lot of the blood from the silencer was no longer available - that was hardly Jeremy's fault.

At the trial it was conceded that the blood in the silencer could be a mixture of June and Nevill's. Did they test the blood grouping of Nicholas Caffell? As the shots to his head were contact ones or very close, one might expect his blood to be in the silencer rather than Nevill's.

-------------------------------

Sheila's DNA was only found inside the internal thread that screws onto the external thread on the rifles barrel...

Once jury sent note to judge, blood evidence was presented differently to that given to the court beforehand - whic effectively changed the course of the trial...

In my opinion...

[Kaldin]

No, Sheila's DNA was not found inside the silencer, on any baffle plate where any blood was / may have previously been seen / found. I strongly dispute such a suggestion, because that is not strictly true...

Lets get the facts right, so that there can be no mistake about this point - some DNA was found to be present upon the inverted thread, inside the silencer that screws onto the external thread of a guns barrel. How it got there has never official been discussed or explained, but it seems odds on, that it got there purely by accidental or innocent contamination -  when the police were moving the guns barrel around upon Sheila's neck / throat, which was the very occasion that Sheila's DNA was put onto the end of the barrel of that gun...

You then have various police officers screwing the silencer onto the end of the guns barrel, (PC Whidon, and DI Cook) before the silencer was even sent to the Lab',  on 30th August 1985, brought about because Sheila's DNA that was present on the external thread on the end of the guns barrel, was fitted internally to the silencer, by screwing the threads of both together in an airtight fashion, which forced Sheila's DNA by dynamic process, into the silencer where it was eventually found in and by 2002...

There is nothing difficult in trying to fathom out how Sheila's DNA got into the silencer, since it was not discovered there in that part of the silencer until 2002, long after the silencer was put at risk of contamination by the police, and the ballistics expert, Fletcher, and others...

in my opinion...

One of the prosecution experts said that in her opinion Sheila's DNA was in the silencer.

Anyhow, the appeal judges conceded that it was not possible to conclude if it was in there or not. It seems to me that the appeal judges rejected that ground because a lot of the blood from the silencer was no longer available - that was hardly Jeremy's fault.

At the trial it was conceded that the blood in the silencer could be a mixture of June and Nevill's. Did they test the blood grouping of Nicholas Caffell? As the shots to his head were contact ones or very close, one might expect his blood to be in the silencer rather than Nevill's.

-------------------------------

Sheila's DNA was only found inside the internal thread that screws onto the external thread on the rifles barrel...

Once jury sent note to judge, blood evidence was presented differently to that given to the court beforehand - whic effectively changed the course of the trial...

In my opinion...

So her DNA was found in the silencer then - you said it wasn't. How it got there is another matter.

The jury has nothing to do with it - the DNA was found years later when there was no jury.

[mike tesko]

No, Sheila's DNA was not found inside the silencer, on any baffle plate where any blood was / may have previously been seen / found. I strongly dispute such a suggestion, because that is not strictly true...

Lets get the facts right, so that there can be no mistake about this point - some DNA was found to be present upon the inverted thread, inside the silencer that screws onto the external thread of a guns barrel. How it got there has never official been discussed or explained, but it seems odds on, that it got there purely by accidental or innocent contamination -  when the police were moving the guns barrel around upon Sheila's neck / throat, which was the very occasion that Sheila's DNA was put onto the end of the barrel of that gun...

You then have various police officers screwing the silencer onto the end of the guns barrel, (PC Whidon, and DI Cook) before the silencer was even sent to the Lab',  on 30th August 1985, brought about because Sheila's DNA that was present on the external thread on the end of the guns barrel, was fitted internally to the silencer, by screwing the threads of both together in an airtight fashion, which forced Sheila's DNA by dynamic process, into the silencer where it was eventually found in and by 2002...

There is nothing difficult in trying to fathom out how Sheila's DNA got into the silencer, since it was not discovered there in that part of the silencer until 2002, long after the silencer was put at risk of contamination by the police, and the ballistics expert, Fletcher, and others...

in my opinion...

One of the prosecution experts said that in her opinion Sheila's DNA was in the silencer.

Anyhow, the appeal judges conceded that it was not possible to conclude if it was in there or not. It seems to me that the appeal judges rejected that ground because a lot of the blood from the silencer was no longer available - that was hardly Jeremy's fault.

At the trial it was conceded that the blood in the silencer could be a mixture of June and Nevill's. Did they test the blood grouping of Nicholas Caffell? As the shots to his head were contact ones or very close, one might expect his blood to be in the silencer rather than Nevill's.

-------------------------------

Sheila's DNA was only found inside the internal thread that screws onto the external thread on the rifles barrel...

Once jury sent note to judge, blood evidence was presented differently to that given to the court beforehand - whic effectively changed the course of the trial...

In my opinion...

So her DNA was found in the silencer then - you said it wasn't. How it got there is another matter.

The jury has nothing to do with it - the DNA was found years later when there was no jury.

... Blood was not found inside internal thread of silencer...

[Kaldin]

Blood was not found inside internal thread of silencer...

I said DNA, not blood. It was the opinion of one of the experts that Sheila's DNA was inside the silencer, and you have agreed, so let's move on.

[Kaldin]

I'd like to know why there was a record of Robert Boutflour's blood group. Were tests done on all the relatives for elimination purposes? After all, some of them were around when the silencer was fiddled with.

[mike tesko]

Blood was not found inside internal thread of silencer...

I said DNA, not blood. It was the opinion of one of the experts that Sheila's DNA was inside the silencer, and you have agreed, so let's move on.

... I do not agree with what you are implying, since, there was no DNA belonging to Shiela found anywhere inside the silenber where any blood was seen or found by anyone, at any stage. Some Dna was found on an internal screw thread, but there can be no suggestion that it got there at the time of the shootings, because the internal thread of the silencer, was screwed air tight onto the external thread on the end of the guns barrel - with the silencer fitted to the gun in this way, it would be nigh on impossible, for any blood or DNA, to get onto the thread of the silencer. Any DNA found there in that part of the silencer could only have got there, by a process of innocent, or accidental contamination. It is wrong for anyone to try and suggest that Shiela's DNA could have got into the silencer at the time she was shot and killed...