Question Re 'Firearms Team Are In Conversation'

[killingeve]

So why did Jeremy say that " I should say that all the bolts had been removed and everything locked away?

To comply with firearms regulations. 

It's clear that an arsenal of weapons and ammo was available at WHF. 

P. 44 or 45 of AE's wit stat can't remember which state PE disagreed with EP's findings over firearms.  Obviously the rellies knew best 

[No-Bits]

I don't see the significance in any of this given that he couldn't have known A. that the house wouldn't be stormed immediately and B. that armed response would be called which added to the waiting. It's something he couldn't have planned for and had no control over.

You see no significance that Jeremy informed the police at the scene that he had personally left out a loaded firearm  and that there there were many more loaded and accessible firearms inside the house?

Especially when you take into account that Jeremy later says he did not leave out a loaded rifle, and that the police failed to discover a single loaded weapon in the house?

I think the significance is there for all to see and would like to thank Ralf for highlighting this previously undiscussed point. 

[guest7363]

I don't see the significance in any of this given that he couldn't have known A. that the house wouldn't be stormed immediately and B. that armed response would be called which added to the waiting. It's something he couldn't have planned for and had no control over.

The significance being it proves the reason the delay for the police storming the house was not due to the fact they were in conversation with anyone, it was delaying tactics of another factor?

[Patti]

Right. The first thing that has just struck me is the way each of the raid teams statements read. Its like they have been written in a repeated way, but that is my own assumption. 

Dermot: Says different in that Adams in his briefing does not mention loaded weapons.

Jeaps: Adams tells her that there are several weapons in the house. He does not tell her that any are loaded.

Webb: He only mentions rifle 18 as being partly loaded and does not mention anything about other weapons being loaded.

Delgardo. His two statements conflict. On the 7th he says that rifle 18 was left with 10 rounds in it. In his statement on the 20th Sept he does not mention any loaded weapons.

Hall: He never mentions anything about any loaded weapons in the briefing he received.

Manners: He says rifle 18 partly loaded, no mention of any other weapons being loaded. 


What I find strange is that during the briefing Adam's failed to tell his men that the weapons were loaded.....Now work that one out. 

[guest7363]

Right. The first thing that has just struck me is the way each of the raid teams statements read. Its like they have been written in a repeated way, but that is my own assumption. 

Dermot: Says different in that Adams in his briefing does not mention loaded weapons.

Jeaps: Adams tells her that there are several weapons in the house. He does not tell her that any are loaded.

Webb: He only mentions rifle 18 as being partly loaded and does not mention anything about other weapons being loaded.

Delgardo. His two statements conflict. On the 7th he says that rifle 18 was left with 10 rounds in it. In his statement on the 20th Sept he does not mention any loaded weapons.

Hall: He never mentions anything about any loaded weapons in the briefing he received.

Manners: He says rifle 18 partly loaded, no mention of any other weapons being loaded. 


What I find strange is that during the briefing Adam's failed to tell his men that the weapons were loaded.....Now work that one out. 

This also proves to me that all the statements were made independantly not preplanned or doctored and in parrot fashion dont you think patti, we all tell different storys after an event.

[No-Bits]

Right. The first thing that has just struck me is the way each of the raid teams statements read. Its like they have been written in a repeated way, but that is my own assumption. 

Dermot: Says different in that Adams in his briefing does not mention loaded weapons.

Jeaps: Adams tells her that there are several weapons in the house. He does not tell her that any are loaded.

Webb: He only mentions rifle 18 as being partly loaded and does not mention anything about other weapons being loaded.

Delgardo. His two statements conflict. On the 7th he says that rifle 18 was left with 10 rounds in it. In his statement on the 20th Sept he does not mention any loaded weapons.

Hall: He never mentions anything about any loaded weapons in the briefing he received.

Manners: He says rifle 18 partly loaded, no mention of any other weapons being loaded. 


What I find strange is that during the briefing Adam's failed to tell his men that the weapons were loaded.....Now work that one out. 

Are you suggesting that the firearms team and other officers taking cover behind walls etc, were not informed about there being loaded firearms within the house? 

Well, okay, if that's what you think, I'm not sure others would agree though. 

[Patti]

Are you suggesting that the firearms team and other officers taking cover behind walls etc, were not informed about there being loaded firearms within the house? 

Well, okay, if that's what you think, I'm not sure others would agree though. 

I can only go on the statements I have read in the archives and say that none of them mention that in the briefing they had that they were told that there were loaded weapons in the farm house.

I'm not making that up, it is there for all to read.  Only Adam's mentions what Jeremy had said, but there is no mention from his team that he had told them that was the case.  The only thing mentioned is rifle 18 being partly loaded....What that means I have no idea.... 

[Caroline R]

You see no significance that Jeremy informed the police at the scene that he had personally left out a loaded firearm  and that there there were many more loaded and accessible firearms inside the house?

Especially when you take into account that Jeremy later says he did not leave out a loaded rifle, and that the police failed to discover a single loaded weapon in the house?

I think the significance is there for all to see and would like to thank Ralf for highlighting this previously undiscussed point. 

I see more significance in altered logs, statements, witness statement discrepancies, lack of physical evidence and blatant lies. All have been dismissed out of hand. The investigation and the trial were both a shambles so with that in mind the whole case is more than a little concocted and contradictory,  I can't believe that anybody looking at this subjectively would not be a little concerned by these details (even if only secretively).  (I am behaving BUT I think your comment is more apt from the innocent point of view) 

[No-Bits]

I can only go on the statements I have read in the archives and say that none of them mention that in the briefing they had that they were told that there were loaded weapons in the farm house.

That's priceless Patti. 

I'm fairly certain that everybody involved was fully aware that the incident involved the potential use of firearms.


Anyway, back to the statements, why do you think JB told the police that he had left a loaded rifle out, but then later said that he didn't leave a loaded rifle out at all?

Just a mix up on JB's part right? 

[No-Bits]

I see more significance in altered logs, statements, witness statement discrepancies, lack of physical evidence and blatant lies. All have been dismissed out of hand. The investigation and the trial were both a shambles so with that in mind the whole case is more than a little concocted and contradictory,  I can't believe that anybody looking at this subjectively would not be a little concerned by these details (even if only secretively).  (I am behaving BUT I think your comment is more apt from the innocent point of view) 

If you wish to have some sort of personal exchange (  ), then please either use the PM facility or start a new off topic thread, I don't think others are interested in watching. 

[Caroline R]

That's priceless Patti. 

I'm fairly certain that everybody involved was fully aware that the incident involved the potential use of firearms.


Anyway, back to the statements, why do you think JB told the police that he had left a loaded rifle out, but then later said that he didn't leave a loaded rifle out at all?

Just a mix up on JB's part right? 

Perhaps he did leave it loaded but given what happened he was afraid to admit it, perhaps he felt guilty for leaving a loaded weapon that was later used to kill his family. Perhaps he simply didn't remember if he left it loaded or not. he certainly isn't the only one in this case to forget specifics.

[guest7363]

I can only go on the statements I have read in the archives and say that none of them mention that in the briefing they had that they were told that there were loaded weapons in the farm house.

I'm not making that up, it is there for all to read.  Only Adam's mentions what Jeremy had said, but there is no mention from his team that he had told them that was the case.  The only thing mentioned is rifle 18 being partly loaded....What that means I have no idea.... 

I think everyone was aware that guns had been used they all had a briefing before hand regarding sister gone beserk with a gun so all the raid team had been informed.

[No-Bits]

.... perhaps he felt guilty .....

Absolutely.   

[Patti]

That's priceless Patti. 

I'm fairly certain that everybody involved was fully aware that the incident involved the potential use of firearms.


Anyway, back to the statements, why do you think JB told the police that he had left a loaded rifle out, but then later said that he didn't leave a loaded rifle out at all?

Just a mix up on JB's part right? 

I'm certain that the raid team were called out due to there being weapons in the house and the fact that Jeremy had told then that he had received a call from his father saying that Sheila has got the gun and is going beserk....

But the calling of more man power was due to the size of the farmhouse, because Adam's after his evaluation had decided he did not have enough men to cover. Adam's states that quite clearly.

Why do you think Adam's said that?

I tend to look for the bigger picture and noted that Jeremy had told Adams that as far as he knew the bolts had been removed and the weapons locked up.  After Jeremy said that he went on to tell Adams that he thought they may be loaded.  Adams was concerned for the safety of his men and after he made his evaluation on the situation he realised he had not enough men due to the size of the farm house.

This is how I see it.....But, looking at the bigger picture none of the other raid team says that they were told that there were loaded weapons inside; only that rifle 18 were partly loaded.  I'm not twisting it, just repeating what I have read so far.   

[Caroline R]

If you wish to have some sort of personal exchange (  )

Eh? What a odd thing to say!! Take your own advice and attack the post and not the poster!!