Pamelas 10pm phonecall

[Hartley]

Thankyou Hartley.That is a fantastic photo. You state top right-hand window is box room.Is that the window that is boarded or bricked up or the window to the left of that?

The window which appears to be bricked up is just a blank window, it has always been like that, the box room is the window next to it.

That blank window is where the main bedroom is.

[chelmsey]

Thanks Hartley.So the main bedroom runs front to back I take it.?

[Hartley]

Thanks Hartley.So the main bedroom runs front to back I take it.?

Sort of.
I've added the floor plans in this thread: http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,540.msg9873.html#msg9873

[tyler]

Ive bumped this thread due to learning something new,which is interesting.
In Pamelas statement,she says that she spoke to Sheila on the phone and that Sheila was quiet and not very talkative (or words to that effect).
Robert Boutflour describes in his statement how he was present when the phone call occurred and listened to the conversation.
In David Boutflours COLP interview,he states that he was also present when the call between Pam and June took place,but states that Sheila refused to come to the phone to speak to her Aunt Pam.
Which statement is correct?
Did Pamela speak to Sheila or not?

[mike tesko]

According to Pamela Boutflours statement, as a result of speaking to June that evening (6th August 1985) she was expecting to see June on the following day, to speak to her about a suitible home in which to send Sheila for a rest and treatment, or something similar...

[Bridget]

Ive bumped this thread due to learning something new,which is interesting.
In Pamelas statement,she says that she spoke to Sheila on the phone and that Sheila was quiet and not very talkative (or words to that effect).
Robert Boutflour describes in his statement how he was present when the phone call occurred and listened to the conversation.
In David Boutflours COLP interview,he states that he was also present when the call between Pam and June took place,but states that Sheila refused to come to the phone to speak to her Aunt Pam.
Which statement is correct?
Did Pamela speak to Sheila or not?

I'm scraping my memory here but I think Pam did speak to Sheila, and then to June (again?) but when it came to saying goodbye at the end of the call Sheila had wandered off and didn't come back to the phone, which Pam thought unlike her. Or something.

[Patti]

That is correct Bridget and, JB told her sister she had gone to bed. 

[maggie]

I'm scraping my memory here but I think Pam did speak to Sheila, and then to June (again?) but when it came to saying goodbye at the end of the call Sheila had wandered off and didn't come back to the phone, which Pam thought unlike her. Or something.

I find Sheila's withdrawal that evening really interesting because it is a symptom seen before a psychotic attack by a sufferer of shizophrenia. 
Another interesting point is that Jeremy also states that Sheila wasn't with it, not joining in the conversation at all.  If he was lying and setting the scene surely he would have said Sheila was argumentative or angry.  It's highly unlikely he would know this was a warning of a psychotic attack.   

[guest154]

I find Sheila's withdrawal that evening really interesting because it is a symptom seen before a psychotic attack by a sufferer of shizophrenia. 
Another interesting point is that Jeremy also states that Sheila wasn't with it, not joining in the conversation at all.  If he was lying and setting the scene surely he would have said Sheila was argumentative or angry.  It's highly unlikely he would know this was a warning of a psychotic attack.

Withdrawal? By going to bed at 11pm?  ?

[Bridget]

I find Sheila's withdrawal that evening really interesting because it is a symptom seen before a psychotic attack by a sufferer of shizophrenia. 
Another interesting point is that Jeremy also states that Sheila wasn't with it, not joining in the conversation at all.  If he was lying and setting the scene surely he would have said Sheila was argumentative or angry.  It's highly unlikely he would know this was a warning of a psychotic attack.

I tend to agree with that Maggie, although I think there's also room for the idea that he was painting a picture of her illness generally, and not trying to claim that there was anything much noticeably wrong on that particular night.

[maggie]

I tend to agree with that Maggie, although I think there's also room for the idea that he was painting a picture of her illness generally, and not trying to claim that there was anything much noticeably wrong on that particular night.

Yes, but I think he said she waasn't joining in with the conversation ....wasn't involved at all.  I see what you mean, just would have thought anything he knew about paranoid schizophrenia would be more likely to be the violent side and if he was trying to paint a picture of a person capable of shooting her children and her parents he would be more inclined to portray her mood as at least agitated.  Withdrawn and not involved would have been a strange choice imo.

[Bridget]

Yes, but I think he said she waasn't joining in with the conversation ....wasn't involved at all.  I see what you mean, just would have thought anything he knew about paranoid schizophrenia would be more likely to be the violent side and if he was trying to paint a picture of a person capable of shooting her children and her parents he would be more inclined to portray her mood as at least agitated.  Withdrawn and not involved would have been a strange choice imo.

If he'd made up a story about her state that evening he couldn't have known whether or not someone would have countered it by saying that they had spoken to her, or even seen her, after he left the farm and she was fine, or even a little withdrawn. That said, I don't think that fits very well with the theory of his general arrogance with regard to getting away with it, which is why I think your point is a valid one.

[maggie]

If he'd made up a story about her state that evening he couldn't have known whether or not someone would have countered it by saying that they had spoken to her, or even seen her, after he left the farm and she was fine, or even a little withdrawn. That said, I don't think that fits very well with the theory of his general arrogance with regard to getting away with it, which is why I think your point is a valid one.

Thank you Bridget, its hard to know, I see what you're saying too, that's the trouble with this case!!

[lookout]

I find Sheila's withdrawal that evening really interesting because it is a symptom seen before a psychotic attack by a sufferer of shizophrenia. 
Another interesting point is that Jeremy also states that Sheila wasn't with it, not joining in the conversation at all.  If he was lying and setting the scene surely he would have said Sheila was argumentative or angry.  It's highly unlikely he would know this was a warning of a psychotic attack.

Withdrawal is right Maggie,,,as is the fact that sufferers also believe that they're being spied on,no matter who it is who may be innocently carrying out work on the property itself. All sufferers seem to have this in-built phenomena. It's all related to their illness of course,and poor Sheila,even with the treatment she'd had and was having,was having little or no effect.
I actually know somebody who is going down the same road,following the same pattern,but without a GP's intervention as the person concerned doesn't think there's anything wrong.

Jeremy wouldn't have seen the behaviour as  predestine  at all.

[buddy]

Yes, but I think he said she waasn't joining in with the conversation ....wasn't involved at all.  I see what you mean, just would have thought anything he knew about paranoid schizophrenia would be more likely to be the violent side and if he was trying to paint a picture of a person capable of shooting her children and her parents he would be more inclined to portray her mood as at least agitated.  Withdrawn and not involved would have been a strange choice imo.

I thought Jeremy went out to shoot rabbits, so could have had no knowlege if Sheila had argued with her parents or not.
When he returned to the farm he placed the rifle in the settle, and went home to Goldhanger.. He would havenot known if she was agitated.
On the other hand Colin had allegledy said " she has done it then" after being contacted by the police.
Interestingly he did not believe it was Jeremy at first.
If it was Jeremy the mistake he made was claiming a telephone call from his father. It would have been better to discover the bodies" the next morning.
To be clear I do not believe Mugford about the "tonights the night" phone call, and have always been of the opinion that she should have been beside him in the dock. She was one of the first supergrasses to escape prosecution for turning states evidence.
I don't post much now as we have chewed this cud before, but remain convinced that their is a masonic connection, guilty, or not. Misguided or not Robert was to the fore. I think he convinced himself that Jeremy did it. It was nothing to do with the money, just his belief.