The Stage managing of Ralph Bamber, by the police in the Kitchen...

[Kaldin]

Is it possible that Neville phoned Jeremy before there was any shooting? If Sheila had the gun she might have been making threats but not actually shooting anyone. That might explain why Neville phoned Jeremy and asked him to come over. At that stage, perhaps Neville didn't envisage that Sheila would actually shoot anyone - he just wanted some help to calm her down.

According to Jeremy, the phone went "dead" and when he tried to phone back it was engaged. If Neville had put the phone down it wouldn't have been engaged. Is it possible that Sheila hit the disconnect button whilst Neville was talking but didn't put the phone back on the hook?

Hah we both posted approximately the same conclusion there lol....  Neville may have returned upstairs after the call and then was shot..

That could explain why he was in the kitchen, then the bedroom, then the kitchen again. It could also explain how he could call Jeremy before he got shot in the mouth and jaw.

[Pete0001]

Yeah.. If sheila committed the murders I still sway towards the idea that Neville made the call to Jeremy before anyone was shot but Sheila had the gun and was upstairs.

Is there a thread on here that contains nothing but cold hard FACTS? Nearly everything I have commented on in the last few days could be rewritten in some many different ways to prove innocence for Jeremy or Sheila.

FACTS alone will prove Jeremy innocent... Proof of Police errors and non cooperation could get Jeremy out of jail... but doesnt prove anything unfortunatly.

[bb2010]

Yes, facts are hard to come by. Every post here has been started by the same author - who has done a great job releasing photographs and scanning in documents but obviously has chosen which ones to release.

[Kaldin]

Yeah.. If sheila committed the murders I still sway towards the idea that Neville made the call to Jeremy before anyone was shot but Sheila had the gun and was upstairs.

Is there a thread on here that contains nothing but cold hard FACTS? Nearly everything I have commented on in the last few days could be rewritten in some many different ways to prove innocence for Jeremy or Sheila.

FACTS alone will prove Jeremy innocent... Proof of Police errors and non cooperation could get Jeremy out of jail... but doesnt prove anything unfortunatly.

I agree that it seems likely that any phone call to Jeremy would have been made before he was shot, and probably before anyone was shot.

I also have difficulty in finding proven facts on here or anywhere on the internet. I often refer to the appeal document from 2002 which contains official findings. There are the logs which the police made, so I guess those are facts but they're scattered around so it's hard to find them in one place.

Perhaps there should be one thread where proven facts or official reports are posted with no discussion, so it's easier to find them?

[Pete0001]

I agree that it seems likely that any phone call to Jeremy would have been made before he was shot, and probably before anyone was shot.

If no one had been shot and it was a case of Sheila having a gun then calling the police would have been a big decision that would reprocussions on sheila and Mr and Mrs Bamber.. until the first shot was fired the seriousness was never understood.... If Sheila was the murderer.

Perhaps there should be one thread where proven facts or official reports are posted with no discussion, so it's easier to find them?

Totally agree.. a FACTS only thread can't be a bad thing... undisputed FACT thread. +1

[Kaldin]

I agree that it seems likely that any phone call to Jeremy would have been made before he was shot, and probably before anyone was shot.

If no one had been shot and it was a case of Sheila having a gun then calling the police would have been a big decision that would reprocussions on sheila and Mr and Mrs Bamber.. until the first shot was fired the seriousness was never understood.... If Sheila was the murderer.

Perhaps there should be one thread where proven facts or official reports are posted with no discussion, so it's easier to find them?

Totally agree.. a FACTS only thread can't be a bad thing... undisputed FACT thread. +1

Exactly. I think you have to think about the psychology here. One of the things which went against Jeremy is that Neville allegedly called him and not the police. The other thing was that Jeremy called Chelmsford police station and didn't dial 999.

However, if nobody had been shot at that time, then Neville would merely think that Sheila was going off on one and it didn't occur to him that she might actually deliberately shoot someone. Perhaps he wanted Jeremy there so they could prevent her accidently firing the gun or something.

Likewise, Jeremy might have been concerned and a bit afraid, but also didn't think that Sheila would actually shoot someone so he called the local police instead.

[Pete0001]

However, if nobody had been shot at that time, then Neville would merely think that Sheila was going off on one and it didn't occur to him that she might actually deliberately shoot someone. Perhaps he wanted Jeremy there so they could prevent her accidently firing the gun or something.

Likewise, Jeremy might have been concerned and a bit afraid, but also didn't think that Sheila would actually shoot someone so he called the local police instead.

Yes... and as that paragraph stands it takes no stretch of the immagination what so ever to believe... its totally acceptable where as the alternatives seem a little barmy.

The case needs to focus on points like this... without hard evidence people are always going to have a hard time believing she shot herself, looked dead, police walk past she flee's (post on here states FLED upstairs) upstairs already sustaining a gun wound and shots herself again.. with a rifle she either carried with her or left upstairs (meaing a second gun was downstairs).
This version is hard to believe... possible but requires more evidence.

[Kaldin]

However, if nobody had been shot at that time, then Neville would merely think that Sheila was going off on one and it didn't occur to him that she might actually deliberately shoot someone. Perhaps he wanted Jeremy there so they could prevent her accidently firing the gun or something.

Likewise, Jeremy might have been concerned and a bit afraid, but also didn't think that Sheila would actually shoot someone so he called the local police instead.

Yes... and as that paragraph stands it takes no stretch of the immagination what so ever to believe... its totally acceptable where as the alternatives seem a little barmy.

The case needs to focus on points like this... without hard evidence people are always going to have a hard time believing she shot herself, looked dead, police walk past she flee's (post on here states FLED upstairs) upstairs already sustaining a gun wound and shots herself again.. with a rifle she either carried with her or left upstairs (meaing a second gun was downstairs).
This version is hard to believe... possible but requires more evidence.

Hard evidence is very useful, but there seems to be so much missing, and even if you have it, it can be interpreted in different ways to point to Jeremy's guilt or innocence. That's why I think it's also useful to think about common sense and try to imagine what the people involved would have done logically and why they behaved as they did.

[tom]

One undisputed fact is EP destroyed all DNA evidence after being instructed by a court not too why ? They withhold over 200 photo's and will not allow their notebooks to be ESDA tested Why ?

[mike tesko]

One undisputed fact is EP destroyed all DNA evidence after being instructed by a court not too why ? They withhold over 200 photo's and will not allow their notebooks to be ESDA tested Why ?

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And - on 14th August 1985, at the opening of the inquest into these five deaths, PI "Bob" Miller, told Deputy Coroner, Mr Thompkin, that Sheila had killed the others, and that she had then taken her own life by way of a solitary shot under the chin, which caused the Deputy Coroner, to authorize the release of the victims bodies for release and disposal...

Sheila was shot twice, not once, so why did PI "Bob" Miller deceive the coroners court into accepting that Sheila had only been shot once? Why were EP trying to convince the Coroners court, that Sheila had only been shot once, and conceal the fact that she had in fact been shot twice?

Which shot was PI Miller talking about?

Was PI Miller saying that Sheila only shot herself once?

If so, who was responsible for firing the second shot, and what were the circumstances of how that second shot came to be fired?

Within a week of the opening of the inquest, the bodies of the three adult victims, had all been cremated, and the bodies of the two child victims, buried at High Gate Cemetery...

[Pete0001]

But is it really deception or just shabby police work. The shot that killed her was the shot under the chin yes? As he stated one shot under the chin killed her. Deception leads the reader to think that this statement was said to hide something.. but by all accounts there was nothing to hide until Jeremy started looking good for arrest.

[mike tesko]

But is it really deception or just shabby police work. The shot that killed her was the shot under the chin yes? As he stated one shot under the chin killed her. Deception leads the reader to think that this statement was said to hide something.. but by all accounts there was nothing to hide until Jeremy started looking good for arrest.

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The other shot, the first one, the non fatal one, bullet PV/20, was not referred to, and is it just a coincidence that this bullet became transformed from being a fragmented bullet, at the time of the autopsy, which pathologist, Peter Venezis, performed upon the body of Sheila, on the afternoon, of 7th August 1985, and that it should become transformed into a whole bullet, by the time the batch of crime scene ammunition, including bullet PV/20, by 20th September, 1985, was submitted to the Lab', which enabled the ballistic expert, Malcolm Fletcher to link and associate it, as having been loaded, and fired, from the Bamber rifle?

Why did PI Miller conceal any reference to this wound, and this bullet, (PV/20), from the Deputy Coroner, Mr Thompkin?

If the Deputy Corner, had been provided with information about the second wound, and he had decided to look more closely into its circumstances, he would almost certainly have identified and recognized, that the bullet which was in situ, at the time of the autopsy, was a fragmented bullet, but the one in police possession was a whole one, and he would almost certainly have suspected foul play had he been in a position to know what we all now know...

If these features had come to light at the time of the opening of the inquest, is it the view of everyone that the Deputy coroner would still have authorized the release of the bodies for disposal, by way of cremation, and or burial?

I think not...

You see, PI Miller did not tell the truth about the circumstances of how Sheila came to die at the scene, he did not refer the deputy coroner to information which was currently in the possession of Essex police, to the effect that a female body was originally found downstairs upon entry, (7:37am) and that by 8:30am, that female body was no longer there, but it  had been displaced upstairs, into the bedroom...

Does a witness like PI Miller, have to speak words, in order to be labelled, as a liar, or a conspirator?

What if such a witness simply refuses to talk about, or acknowledge that Sheila had been shot twice, and that there were problems with the bullet that can be associated with that second wound?

[lebaleb]

Can the sequence of shootings be established by looking at the casings of the bullets? If they were mixed up in a box they could have been loaded randomly.

Where there fingerprints on the casings?