Seeking the Truth for Jeremy Bamber

[Jane]

Why? 

I don't think my Mum would have entertained anything more than little furry creatures.  She would not have wanted dogs and cats roaming around on carpets, soft furnishings which I can understand.  I was allowed to bring Herby into the conservatory, kitchen and utility in the winter.  In the summer I played with him in the garden in his pen which my Dad made for him    I taught him so many tricks.  It was amazing all the things he could do.  He made a little buzzing noise too so much that I thought he had swallowed a blue bottle when it first happened 

NaNu HI It sounds as if you and Herby had a lovely relationship. Whose idea was it that you didn't ever have any more pets?

[susan]

Hello N/N  think that is more the south of Scotland and you are besotted with Rab C Nesbitt in my part of the Highlands the diet is good and all the farmers of 70 look like 40 year old fine strapping men to die for   I am so blessed

[Jane]

The pathologists report does not say Nevill would not / could not have fought back – it’s one of those we don't knows

Extreme pain causes endorphins and adrenaline to rush the system.

Nevill imo obviously had the strength to get out of the bedroom which is where I believe he sustained the first two shots to his jaw – the shoulder shot and arm shot may have weakened his left arm (was Nevill right or left handed – If he  was right handed his fighting arm would be working - adrenaline could have strengthened Nevill at least for a while – survival is a strong instinct.

Nickos HI, I imagine that Sheila would have been experiencing the same sort of adrenaline rush as Nevill but he was losing blood and would have weakened much faster.

[Nickos]

Possibly Nevill made the phone call to Jeremy before he rushed upstairs to see what Sheila had being doing? This probably explains the lack of blood on the phone. I don't think people realise that such a crime could be over in minutes. Bullets incapacitate people very effectively.

Hi Grahame,

I totally agree that these incidents (crimes) can happen in seconds/minutes which is why Neville would never have made a phone call if his emotionally disturbed daughter had a gun.

JB’s mistake in the hope of setting the scene with “Please come over. Your sister has gone crazy and has got the gun” is that he overlooked the position that Nevill (unwounded) would never have left her alone with a gun!

[Nickos]

Nickos HI, I imagine that Sheila would have been experiencing the same sort of adrenaline rush as Nevill but he was losing blood and would have weakened much faster.

Hi April, that all depends on your perspective of the case - and I agree, a lot of what we are discussing is based on our imagination - and interpretation 

[Nickos]

Hi Nikos

Thank you for taking time out to reply to me.

Well, it niggles me too.  There is a small percentage of me that thinks that a third party could be involved.

We have Jeremy, the heir to the Bamber fortune after the tragedies. 
we have Julie the jilted girlfriend
We have Matthew who claimed to be a mercenary
We have Brett Collins the friend of Jeremy's from New Zealand

Jeremy is left with a fortune with heavy death duties to pay, a farm to run and funerals to pay for.
He is convicted of murdering 5 members of his family some 8 weeks after the murders. During this time according to Julie he never confesses to her that he killed his family.  He said " I didn't do it, I couldn't have done it, Matthew did it. He told Sheila to lay down on the bed and shoot herself" He told her that he had thought about how to do it whilst on his tractor all day and when he telephone her he told her "Tonight's the night" to which she replied "go back to bed"  She claimed to have brought him the tablets that she had got from her doctor, she said " I only took one they were too big" A week later she claims she took them to Jeremy's...why she took them there remains a mystery. But, she later implied that Jeremy might have used them on rats for he had told her that he had sedated rats, then strangled them.   So we have Jeremy the murderer, opps sorry the man that arranged the murder's telling his girlfriend all about the crime he was involved in; knowing that at any time Julie could go to the police or share this information with her friends. 

Julie a young 20 year old in love with the man who had just inherited a fortune.  She finds out he is seeing another woman, and the pain is very hard to bare. She hates him for what he has DONE TO HER and is crippled with emotion.  But, lets step back a bit and reveal a little bit of what she was like.  She sold drugs at collage. She is involved in a burglary at the caravan park. She is then involved with a cheque book fraud.  Of course she could have refused to do all of those things, yet she laid the blame at Jeremy's door. No one forced her to do anything, it was her choice.  After the murders Julie was the one that volunteered to view the bodies at the mortuary.  She was the one that accompanied Jeremy and Brett on the holiday to Amsterdam.  She was the one that went out for luxury meals and drank champaign on the night of the funerals.  During this time Julie became jealous of Brett, she wasn't getting the right attention so she had argued with Jeremy about it.  It was clear that she disliked Brett, yet she still went ahead with the holiday to Amsterdam...and went to night clubs and restaurants in his company.  Julie was feeling very pushed out by this time. If we despise Jeremy for doing those things then we must also think the same about Julie. Jeremy was his clever old self in those days and, most arrogant at this stage in his life.  He was taking drugs and had no care for anything or anybody. A solitary time.  Yet, he had moments of lapse where he went quiet and was not in a laughable mood according to the manager at one bar they frequented at that time. Even on the night of the night of the funeral the manager was quite clear in his statement that Jeremy was not him self and that the others were goading him to laugh, but there were no smiles....Jeremy moved from their company and started chatting to the manager who had no idea at this stage who Jeremy was....until Jeremy told him on the night.....Jeremy had to gather money together for death duties and had a major responsibility bestowed on him at the age of 24 and he was slowly becoming a meal ticket for those around him and was realising it.  But, during all this time Julie was being told by Jeremy of his part in the murders and he had told her that the killer "had not been paid yet"  So then we veer ahead to Julie in her final moments when she overhears a call from one of Jeremy's ex lovers and he is arranging to meet up with her.  Jeremy must have been sick and tired of Julie being jealous of Brett and wanted to get out of her clutches, he had enough.  He had provided her with everything he could, but there lacked an understanding between them.  The spit was inevitable, but what would Jeremy do about the things that he had told her? Jeremy did nothing did he.  Julie never said he had threatened her to keep her mouth shut.  If had had been Julie I would have feared for my life, thinking I would be the next one to be murdered....But, no she asked him to help her move into her new flat and after all that had been said, she turned yet again to the man she claimed to have murdered 5 members of her family for help. When Julie reached 21 he gave her the money he had promised her which enabled her to go on the holiday that she had dreamed of going with her friend, without that money she could not have gone, yet again she excepted his money and help knowing what she knew.  Meanwhile he was seeing another woman...So what does Julie do? She is so jealous and still loves him and with the thought, well If I can't have you, no one else will....She confides in a friend and tells a remarkable story about what he had told to her.  Unsure of whether he was joking or not, she is pressured by her friend and goes to the police with her story 6 weeks after the murders....   We have recently seen the documents surrounding the visit to the bank with Julie and SB...they both deny any police involvement that day. The bank manager however, disagrees and states quite clearly that a plain clothes officer attended the bank with the girls and that 1 or 2 weeks later that same officer returned and took a statement...Who is lying?....Sadly  Dovey the bank managers 1985/6 statement was destroyed in 1996...this evidence is in the 2002 submissions and disclosed by the COA.

Matthew the mercenary was arrested, his car was enpounded. Essex police found nothing to connect this man to any crimes.  He even had an air tight alibi.  Well, not so air tight. He was not with his wife, but another woman whom he later marries.  The mercenary stories are then revealed to be fake, so here we have another liar....However, Jeremy admitted that Matthew had been to his cottage on several occasions and that he had taken him to the farm.

Brett.  Well here we have a man whom Jeremy had made friends with during his stay in New Zealand and who is at the moment banned from keeping a licence for a car till 2015.  Brett had been in England prior to and after the murders.  He had also visited the farm on several occasions. Brett also had an air tight alibi he was in Greece at the time of the murders, but had travelled back to the UK and stayed with Jeremy until his arrest.  I do not know how the police checked his alibi I have never seen any documents that state what actions the police took.  Brett along with Matthew were fingerprinted and anything to do with Brett was destroyed in 1996....I have seen that documented and I have a copy should you wish to see it. 

Sorry this is so long and drawn out...but my point is that there is not one scrap of evidence to prove a third party and there never will be because EP destroyed any evidence which could prove otherwise.  However, this does not mean its not possible anything is possible......I will leave you with another comment from Julie " Jeremy told me to tell truth"

Patti.......I haven't addressed all what you have said and I apologise for that. 

Patti,

That is cracking post and worthy of 5 stars. Thanks for all that info. Patti  it certainly paints a tangled web!

Yes, a third party does carry little weight, but I think we agree that there is still a little niggle, and a little niggle it wall remain  .

So now we are back to JB or SC. Well if that's the case then JB did it 

[Nickos]

Nikos

I have researched the shell cases and they are all there.  Oddly enough there are only 3 shell cases found in the kitchen, which could meant that Neville had already been shot 5 times before he got to the kitchen.  Surely this would have rendered him not capable of fighting and that the killer was in a frenzied state by lynching him time and time again....

Hi Patti,

Just to cover this one.

I believe Nevill was shot 4 times (quickly) whilst incapacitated in the kitchen.

I think any one of the 4 head shots would have killed Nevill and if he were outside the kitchen he would have had to have been dragged there - no sign of this happenning.

Has it been stated that there is a possibility one on the shell cases from the kitchen could have been kicked around or caught in the sole of a shoe and re-deposited somewhere else?

I assume the total 25 bullet wounds had 25 bullet cases accounted for!

I have a (too vivid) picture in my head of Nevill have been subdued in the kitchen and slumped in a chair, the killer standing over him (having reloaded) and being clinically despatched with 4 shots at close range to his head.

I am still flummoxed as to how Nevill ended up in that photographed position!!

Was Nevill in that photographed position when the final 4 shots were delivered 

[killingeve]

The pathologists report does not say Nevill would not / could not have fought back – it’s one of those we don't knows

Extreme pain causes endorphins and adrenaline to rush the system.

Nevill imo obviously had the strength to get out of the bedroom which is where I believe he sustained the first two shots to his jaw – the shoulder shot and arm shot may have weakened his left arm (was Nevill right or left handed – If he  was right handed his fighting arm would be working - adrenaline could have strengthened Nevill at least for a while – survival is a strong instinct.

Hi Nickos

As I said you don't appear to have read the pathologist's report as Vanezis actually states that NB's superficial injuries indicate that he put up a spirited defence.

NB suffered total impairment to his left arm.

Please do your homework and report to me before posting again Naughty Nickos 

[killingeve]

NaNu HI It sounds as if you and Herby had a lovely relationship. Whose idea was it that you didn't ever have any more pets?

Hi April

That's a good question.  I don't recall.  Perhaps it was an age thing ie I got more interested in boys than rabbits    Perhaps I found the emotional pain of losing Herby too much on top of losing my birth families, true authentic self/identity, genetic markers etc, etc and the thought of loving and losing again was too much to contemplate.  What do you think?  I certainly don't recall my Mum saying no more pets/rabbits.

[Nickos]

Hi Nickos

As I said you don't appear to have read the pathologist's report as Vanezis actually states that NB's superficial injuries indicate that he put up a spirited defence.

NB suffered total impairment to his left arm.

Please do your homework and report to me before posting again Naughty Nickos 

Hi Naughty,  - I will do my homework, where do I report? 

But imo my point still stands - Nevill, in the kitchen, had fight in him and I believe a more powerful JB subdued him.

Why do you think SC would have shot him initially (and man I believe she cared for), shot him as he ran down the stairs - entered into a fight with him, and then finally kill him with 4 shots to the head?

This is a protracted, vicious and determined fight by the killer to kill.

[maggie]

Why? 

I don't think my Mum would have entertained anything more than little furry creatures.  She would not have wanted dogs and cats roaming around on carpets, soft furnishings which I can understand.  I was allowed to bring Herby into the conservatory, kitchen and utility in the winter.  In the summer I played with him in the garden in his pen which my Dad made for him    I taught him so many tricks.  It was amazing all the things he could do.  He made a little buzzing noise too so much that I thought he had swallowed a blue bottle when it first happened 

Ah!!  What a cutie you were NN ... bless.
My mum had a kitten when she was pregnant with my sister, it had cat flu and was really sick and in the end they had to have it put down and it upset her so much she couldn't contemplate another pet!!!  Or that was her story........  we survived ok as we had lots of hugs 

[killingeve]

Hi Naughty,  - I will do my homework, where do I report? 

But imo my point still stands - Nevill, in the kitchen, had fight in him and I believe a more powerful JB subdued him.

Why do you think SC would have shot him initially (and man I believe she cared for), shot him as he ran down the stairs - entered into a fight with him, and then finally kill him with 4 shots to the head?

This is a protracted, vicious and determined fight by the killer to kill.

Hi NN

If NB put up a spirited defence I believe it was against SC as NB was so badly injured when he entered the kitchen: pain, loss of blood and his arm totally impaired.  There was no need for any powerfully built person. 

None of us have any real idea as to what led up to the tragic events of 07/08.08.85 at WHF.  I would guess that it involved the following:

SC's general mental state
The on-going difficult relationship between SC and June
Welfare of the twins
SC's reunion with her birth mother

[Jane]

Hi April

That's a good question.  I don't recall.  Perhaps it was an age thing ie I got more interested in boys than rabbits    Perhaps I found the emotional pain of losing Herby too much on top of losing my birth families, true authentic self/identity, genetic markers etc, etc and the thought of loving and losing again was too much to contemplate.  What do you think?  I certainly don't recall my Mum saying no more pets/rabbits.

NaNu, I expect you quickly discovered the similarities between rabbits and boys Your age would have been an excellent way of disguising your pain at losing Herby. It would have given you the opportunity to experience new feelings, more interesting and exciting than emotional pain. I suspect that what/who ever we invest with our love, we expect that it/they will ALWAYS be part of out lives, which is why each time we experience a loss it's as if it was for the first time. Might it also be possible that you felt that if you asked for a "replacement" for Herby your request would be refused. I have the impression that your mother MAY have breathed silent relief at Herby's demise.

[Jane]

Hi NN

If NB put up a spirited defence I believe it was against SC as NB was so badly injured when he entered the kitchen: pain, loss of blood and his arm totally impaired.  There was no need for any powerfully built person. 

None of us have any real idea as to what led up to the tragic events of 07/08.08.85 at WHF.  I would guess that it involved the following:

SC's general mental state
The on-going difficult relationship between SC and June
Welfare of the twins
SC's reunion with her birth mother

May I add to that list Colin's rejection of her.

[killingeve]

NaNu, I expect you quickly discovered the similarities between rabbits and boys Your age would have been an excellent way of disguising your pain at losing Herby. It would have given you the opportunity to experience new feelings, more interesting and exciting than emotional pain. I suspect that what/who ever we invest with our love, we expect that it/they will ALWAYS be part of out lives, which is why each time we experience a loss it's as if it was for the first time. Might it also be possible that you felt that if you asked for a "replacement" for Herby your request would be refused. I have the impression that your mother MAY have breathed silent relief at Herby's demise.

Hi April

When one of his whiskers fell out I put it in a little plastic bag that I made and stuck a label on it stating Herby's whisker with the date and time.  I keep it safe in a small pot and would be very upset if I lost it.  I don't recall thinking my request for a "replacement" may have been refused.