Seeking the Truth for Jeremy Bamber

[Jane]

Hi Susan

I think that's an honest answer and brave one.   I agree that Clarke told AE that Sheila was found on the bed, but this was early days and I don't believe that Clarke himself had witnessed the scene at this point.  But, this had convinced AE at that time, but when more details surrounding the scene came out it was said that Sheila was found on the floor at the other side of the bed.  Susan, I don't think she was shot by the police or shot herself downstairs. 

Although, looking at the photo of Sheila there is insufficient evidence that tells us she died in the position she was found.  Normally there are large amounts of blood in the area where someone has died. Not the drips or spatter that we can see in the photo.  We can't see what is under the bible and, we can't see if there are any large amounts of blood underneath her body...But, we do have the evidence from the pathologist that says blood fell to the right hand side of her body that congealed under her right arm and that she was likely to have been in a sitting position or kneeling position at the time she received the shots.  It was unlikely she was in a standing position because the blood did not fall downward on to her nightdress....

Patti, I fear that much of what is given, as fact, by some of the pro's, is as preposterous as that given by some of the anti's, AND for the same reason, to further the cause they support. HOWEVER, there HAS to be some reason why the powers that be continue to refuse the release of information pertaining to the case. This HAS to mean, IMO, that the information contains something which, if it was revealed, would cast immediate doubt on Jeremy's guilt. If the withheld information could validate his guilt I have no hesitation in believing it would have been made public long before now.   

[killingeve]

Hello N/N  so confusing but if Sheila was shot upstairs why was her body staged for photo's as they appear to have been done what would be he point if everything was above board and why would EP try to hide anything where have all the missing items gone and why was so much destroyed this could have held the answer to the truth.

Hi Susan

I feel sure SC's arm and the gun were moved about. I don't think there's much doubt about that.  Why?  Was it something innocent or more sinister?  As all concerned were satisfied to put the tragedy down to 4 murders/1 suicide I guess there was no need to do things that they would have done had it have been an on-going investigation?  Bedding, carpets were destroyed.  What about other exhibits?   

Might be an idea to draw up a list of all exhibits with a note of what happened to them along with dates.  Sounds like a job for Patti 

[Patti]

Patti would I be correct in thinking that June was shot on the bed.  I missed so much with the Dial Up connection but now I am cooking with gas and have access to much more information

Yes June was in laying position when she received one of the shots. You can see the drops of blood that fell on the pillow as she got up from the laying position.

This was in the Macdonnell report and was an exit wound the bullet was later found under near the pillow, can't remember if it was found under or on top.  However, we don't know if that this shot was the first shot...It could be argued that she fell back onto the pillow at some stage, but yes she was definitely laying down when she received that shot. The blood trace is evidence that supports this.  She was later in a sitting position on the bed, then got up. 

It has been said that she was making her way to the door, but I will argue otherwise, she was walking towards her shooter to the bottom of the bed and on her way to the left hand side of the bed.  There she was shot again and fell backwards into the door.  There is blood trace from a shoulder shot on the door where she slid down and went into her final position....

If she had been trying to get out of the bedroom she would have fell the other way outwards towards the door and face down.....

[susan]

Hello april  I agree if Jeremy Bamber was indeed guilty of this horrendous crime no documents other than distressful photos would be held back from the defence  it would not have been necessary to burn and destroy so much evidence.  What happened some know we don't.

[Jane]

Hi Susan

I agree with Patti's initial post on this thread.  I remain open minded on most aspects but very sceptical about the police shooting SC, NB's call to police, multiple silencers and any photo of SC on the bed with one wound. 

I'm unsure about SC's final resting place ie bed or floor.  If bed then how come no blood on the front of her nightie and more elsewhere?  Unless the police lifted her off gently to apply CPR. I don't think SC shot herself in the kitchen and then moved upstairs due again to the lack of blood on her nightie and elsewhere.  I think I'm right in saying that the pathologists's report states after the first shot SC could have survived for a short time ie not long enough for the first wound to form a plug to prevent blood getting onto her nightie and elsewhere.  Anything is possible.  The nightie looks very frumpy as though it might have belonged to June.  The police could have changed it extremely unlikely though.

NaNu, HI I've always thought it strange that a trendy like Sheila would wear a nightdress with puff sleeves and a PeterPan collar. Like you, I'm inclined to think that it was one of June's. Sheila may not have owned one (which also inclines me to believe that the naked lady in  the drawing done by the twins was Mummy, NOT Granny) It also occurs to me that if Sheila had been lifted from the floor to the bed, there would have been copious amounts of blood ON the bed. Whilst blood may have stopped flowing, it doesn't prevent it from soaking into anything it comes into contact with.

[Patti]

Hi Susan

I feel sure SC's arm and the gun were moved about. I don't think there's much doubt about that.  Why?  Was it something innocent or more sinister?  As all concerned were satisfied to put the tragedy down to 4 murders/1 suicide I guess there was no need to do things that they would have done had it have been an on-going investigation?  Bedding, carpets were destroyed.  What about other exhibits?   

Might be an idea to draw up a list of all exhibits with a note of what happened to them along with dates.  Sounds like a job for Patti 

I'll let you do that, go find a pencil...or we could do it all together.....

Right I have work to do....speak laters...

[susan]

Patti June was obviously in bed sleeping when she was shot maybe she was making her way towards the shooter thinking she could take the gun away and she probably could not believe this was happening Ralph must have been downstairs at this stage as I think he was shot last. 

[Nickos]

I want to give an honest opinion about the Jeremy Bamber case.  I have been on this forum for well over a year now and still new snippets of information comes through like in the Sheila's birth thread.  But, I have seen many false truths on the forum, I say false because in my opinion those false truths cannot be proved one way or the other.

I have problems with the fact that it has been said that Sheila was found on the bed and that there is a photograph that proves it.  Of course it is possible that Sheila was placed on the bed at some point during the investigation, but the fact remains that this has not been proven. If this all of this is false then all I can say is that it does not help Jeremy Bamber and his plight for innocence one little bit.

I also have problems with the phone call from Neville to the police station.  Maybe I have not studied this enough and need to look into it in more depth.

I also have problems with the many silencers introduced into this case.  I find it perfectly explainable the reason for the change in labels from SBJ/1 DB/1 and DR/1
To introduce more is not only confusing, but it could be untrue.

I think the truth is paramount in this case, it helps Jeremy more to seek to truth that it does to stretch the truth and twist it.

I want to ask a question! How many of you believe that there is a photograph of Sheila on the bed and that the police killed her?

Hi Patti,

Just to answer your questions;

I do not believe there is a photo of Sheila on the bed.

I do not believe the police killed her.

Additionally;

I do not believe Sheila carried out the murders.

I do not believe Nevill would have called JB at that time in morning, when faced with dealing with an emotionally deranged daughter with a gun. 

I do not believe Nevill called EP.

I do not believe JB saw / heard rabbits the previous evening (establishing why JB had the gun out).

I do not believe JB left the rifle on the settle (conveniently for Sheila to pick up).

I do not believe a figure was seen at the window.

I do not believe EP were ever in “conversation” with Sheila that morning.

I do not believe Sheila was barking down the phone to EP that night.


I do believe JB (or someone known to JB!?) killed them all.

[killingeve]

Hi Patti,

Just to answer your questions;

I do not believe there is a photo of Sheila on the bed.

I do not believe the police killed her.

Additionally;

I do not believe Sheila carried out the murders.

I do not believe Nevill would have called JB at that time in morning, when faced with dealing with an emotionally deranged daughter with a gun. 

I do not believe Nevill called EP.

I do not believe JB saw / heard rabbits the previous evening (establishing why JB had the gun out).

I do not believe JB left the rifle on the settle (conveniently for Sheila to pick up).

I do not believe a figure was seen at the window.

I do not believe EP were ever in “conversation” with Sheila that morning.

I do not believe Sheila was barking down the phone to EP that night.


I do believe JB (or someone known to JB!?) killed them all.

Hi Nickos

Please see the attached links re RB's wit stat confirming NB's stance on Witham police.  I assume in NB's role as JP he had dealings with the police and it appears did not hold them in high esteem.  This is one of the reasons I believe NB called JB as confirmed by JB.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4287.msg180861.html#msg180861

[Nickos]

Hi Nickos

Please see the attached links re RB's wit stat confirming NB's stance on Witham police.  I assume in NB's role as JP he had dealings with the police and it appears did not hold them in high esteem.  This is one of the reasons I believe NB called JB as confirmed by JB.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4287.msg180861.html#msg180861

Hi NN,

Nevill may have had a low opinion of local EP, but he never actually made any phone calls that night as I believe at the time JB alleges he received his call from Nevill, Nevill was already dead.

If NB had called anyone that night it would imo have been 999 (bearing in mind the emergency situation). For the reasons I have explained before Nevill would have tackled Shelia first.

Can you believe someone would make a telephone call in the middle of the night and ask them to come over to confront a deranged person with a gun - would you do that to one of your children (even theoretically).

The phone calls are made up – the phone staged off the hook by the killer to look as if Nevill had used it.

If Nevill had got through to JB – and the phone went dead.

This would imply;

1) Nevill (unwounded) had called JB and then cut the phone off himself – why? Even if Sheila had entered the Kitchen (with a gun) Nevill would have continued to plead with JB to get over, or left the phone open – and of course calling JB over would have put JB in direct risk of being shot as well – not for me – an angle JB overlooked in his made up story.
 
2) Sheila entered the kitchen and depressed the cut off button on the phone – this would have put Sheila within inches of Nevill (unwounded), who imo would have grabbed the gun and subdued Sheila,

3) If Nevill was wounded and others shot, Nevill would never have gone to the kitchen to make a telephone call to JB at that time of night.

[tyler]

Patti..some good points you have made. However,regarding your theory on the mix up re: 2 bodies found downstairs,how can the 'one murder,one suicide' be explained? Regarding the alleged call from Nevill to to the police,I think one has to decide whether EP have told the truth about the police station clock running ten minutes fast. If you don't believe that then a car was despatched to whf BEFORE JB called the police.   Also,do you believe there is enough evidence to point to Sheila having been alive AFTER EP arrived at the farm? Gun sighting in window/back up raid team requested in later hours of morning etc? If so,then EP have not told the truth. And if they have not told the truth then they are surely covering something up?

[Patti]

Hi Patti,

Just to answer your questions;

I do not believe there is a photo of Sheila on the bed.

My concern over this is proof and up to today there is none

I do not believe the police killed her.

Neither do I.

Additionally;

I do not believe Sheila carried out the murders.

This is something we can't say in all honesty.  Equal proof works both ways regarding this and the old card is that if the police had treated it like a crime scene then we might have got proof.  We might have had further proof in 1996, but the police destroyed the evidence.  It's all well and good that one might think that because Jeremy knew a way in and out of the house, that somehow he was responsible for the crime that took place inside.  We have to divorce ourselves from what we think and glean more from the facts and evidence presented to us, which is very little indeed.  If for example hair, DNA, fingerprints or fibres from Jeremy were found in the twins room, the main room and of course Sheila's room, then it would be a different kettle of fish wouldn't it....I would like you to elaborate more on this if possible please....

I do not believe Nevill would have called JB at that time in morning, when faced with dealing with an emotionally deranged daughter with a gun. 

I believe it could have been possible, but in all honesty, because I am having an honest day, I pass because there is no proof that a call took place and there is only Jeremy that says this....I think with all fairness if it was planned, then that call would have to have taken place, either by himself or a third party, because he would have thought that the call would have been traceable....and I think this is a valid point.....However, it is my opinion.

I do not believe Nevill called EP.

Neither do I, I am yet to be convinced, but I need to study it more...

I do not believe JB saw / heard rabbits the previous evening (establishing why JB had the gun out).

I doubt he had to establish a reason to leave a gun out, the house contained 8 of them and they were scattered all over the place....One could say that this was a situation waiting to happen, not having guns locked up.

I do not believe JB left the rifle on the settle (conveniently for Sheila to pick up).

Its also possible that he did.

I do not believe a figure was seen at the window.

You mean a trick of light?? That led to all of them bobbing down behind a wall and what led Bew's to call for back up?   At least this wasn't Jeremy's plan 

I do not believe EP were ever in “conversation” with Sheila that morning.

No I don't

I do not believe Sheila was barking down the phone to EP that night.

Definitely not


I do believe JB (or someone known to JB!?) killed them all.

Its quite possible....Care to elaborate on that point?

[Patti]

Patti..some good points you have made. However,regarding your theory on the mix up re: 2 bodies found downstairs,how can the 'one murder,one suicide' be explained? Regarding the alleged call from Nevill to to the police,I think one has to decide whether EP have told the truth about the police station clock running ten minutes fast. If you don't believe that then a car was despatched to whf BEFORE JB called the police.   Also,do you believe there is enough evidence to point to Sheila having been alive AFTER EP arrived at the farm? Gun sighting in window/back up raid team requested in later hours of morning etc? If so,then EP have not told the truth. And if they have not told the truth then they are surely covering something up?

Likewise Tyler 

I would like to go through the logs at some point and do it to death, but my brain is none functional at the moment.....

Could it be that it was one murder one suicide when they reached the main bedroom?  What time was that message disclosed Tyler....If you have the document can you post it please....

Th rifle sightings are very significant in my opinion.......there can't be an argument about it.  Jeaps and Brown were qualified firearms experts and they knew a rifle when they saw one....The other valid point is that no rifle was found in the box room where it had been sighted so who moved it...Little Crispy maybe....

[Reader]

. . . I think one has to decide whether EP have told the truth about the police station clock running ten minutes fast.

When did EP say that, as distinct from just saying that Pc West must have logged the time incorrectly?

[lookout]

Jeremy should/could have sought the truth himself if he'd have been bothered to pursue the " trick of the light ". This aspect of the case was quickly cast aside,,yet it was after that " sighting " that the raid team were summoned. Why.? Do tricks of the light shoot at you.?
Also I believe that particular area of where the " figure " was ( one or two officers reckoned it was male ) that it was fingerprinted. Not only that,,it was a short time after that a scruffy-looking character was spotted leaving from the direction of the farm,.
I don't believe it was " a trick of the light " at all.