Times of death

[nugnug]

maybe he did give a time of death but we dont know about ity.

[lookout]

My personal reason for the importance of times of death stemmed from when I worked on the wards when we lost a patient. If at the time,it was sudden and the family weren't around,,they'd be told and their first question would be " what time did he/she die ".
Then their conversations would turn to where they were,or what they happened to be doing at the time their loved ones passed away.
Everything had to be entered,,and it's this part of the botched investigation that I can't get my head around. I would have asked what time each individual had died. 

[maggie]

Why did they not challenge? Let me count the reasons )'scuse the paraphrase( !. They were incompetent  2. They didn't think it was necessary.  3. They assumed that whatever was said re timing to be correct.  4. Certain policies were adhered to following consultation/discussion with the other side.    Please feel free to add any more you can think of.

As I remember when he certified death he didn't touch any of the bodies which is also strange, didn't shine a light in eyes or look for any signs of life however weak.  He just looked around and confirmed they were all dead.  Seems crazy enough to me without the fact he didn't estimate time of death.   

[lookout]

As I remember when he certified death he didn't touch any of the bodies which is also strange, didn't shine a light in eyes or look for any signs of life however weak.  He just looked around and confirmed they were all dead.  Seems crazy enough to me without the fact he didn't estimate time of death. 

Maggie,,neither did he remark " that they've been dead for some time ",either. Or that would have put the onus on Jeremy straight away.

[maggie]

Maggie,,neither did he remark " that they've been dead for some time ",either. Or that would have put the onus on Jeremy straight away.

Well I would imgine June and Neville and the twins were probably obviously dead but maybe not so obvious with Sheila, but he didn't check for signs of life. Even in the most everyday situations a doctor checks for signs of life and goes through various routine tests and this was far from routine.

[Lugg]

As I remember when he certified death he didn't touch any of the bodies which is also strange, didn't shine a light in eyes or look for any signs of life however weak.  He just looked around and confirmed they were all dead.  Seems crazy enough to me without the fact he didn't estimate time of death. 

He was an alcoholic as well. I wonder if he had been drinkiing when he was called out?

[lookout]

He was an alcoholic as well. I wonder if he had been drinkiing when he was called out?

That makes it worse. What with Stan Jones with his hip-flask as well,,it's a wonder they could see straight at all.

[Patti]

I have linked to Dr. Craig's statement just for an example of certification of death of each of the victims. This one being that of poor June Bamber. http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1187.0.html
My question if Jeremy was charged with and convicted of murder why therefore was not the death of each person recorded more accurately. Because if the death of each person was recorded after 8 am then logically Jeremy could not be found guilty of the murders as he was with the police at that time?
Now the obvious answer of course is that the Doctor recorded all the deaths at the same time because that was when he examined them.
But sorry. But that is not good enough. Because it should be within every doctor's capabilities to estimate the times of death with a modicum of accuracy. Also it is evident that Sheila Caffell was killed last of all. Yet he still recorded the time of death as being around 8.44am.
If therefore the court heard the times of death then by default they should have found Jeremy not guilty. For they had nothing else but the doctor's statement to go by. So it was completely out of order for the court to state that all had been killed befor 3am to 3.30am as the doctor had already recorded a time of death as being after 8am.

I totally agree with all you have said above Lugg.  How could the court issue a death time, when there wasn't any time given for the deaths...and I agree its well out of order.  How did they not know the deaths were after 3am they didn't....well said Lugg.   

[Alias]

It isn´t that easy to give an accurate time of death. So many factors come into play. That said, I am sure they could have done a better job of the estimate in this case.

P.S. I thought that the most accurate result came from measuring the liver temperature - not a rectal measurement?

[lookout]

It isn´t that easy to give an accurate time of death. So many factors come into play. That said, I am sure they could have done a better job of the estimate in this case.

P.S. I thought that the most accurate result came from measuring the liver temperature - not a rectal measurement?

Alias,,the rectal thermometer tests what warmth,,if any,is in the body.They're a good indicator of approximate time of death,,and under normal conditions,are pretty accurate,if a fraction higher than the average thermometer.