Author Topic: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985  (Read 139119 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #405 on: June 19, 2013, 09:38:AM »
You're referring I assume to the statement where Barbara is overcome with an all-consuming angst that something terrible is about to happen to Nevill..

Hi Steve_uk

This is what I am referring to which you seem to think implicates JB in some way and yet I see no connection with JB whatsoever:

Excerpt from David Shaw's book draft.  Also contained in Roger Wilkes' book

"The other incident involved Barbara Wilson (the farm secretary), the last outsider to speak to any of the five victims. Barbara had noticed that Nevill had become increasingly depressed over the summer of 1985. At 9.30 p.m., August 6, only hours before the murders, Barbara phoned Nevill about her daughter’s bicycle, which the twins wanted to borrow. ‘Would you like me to pop it down now, Mr Bamber?’ she asked.

‘No, no, just leave it,’ snapped Nevill. ‘I’ll pick it up tomorrow.’

Barbara thought she had rung at the wrong time. ‘I knew there was something wrong.’

She later connected her final words to Nevill with a rather strange incident a few weeks before. For some period of time Nevill hadn’t looked well. His once sprightly step had been replaced by a shambling, sagging gait, shrouded by an air of resigned defeat. ‘You bring children into the world,’ he’d lamented to the secretary, ‘and they seem so ungrateful.’ In the farm office on that particular summer morning, Nevill was especially uncomfortable.

Barbara wondered if the upright farmer was ill? Under the natural light streaming in through the office window, Nevill looked like a torn man. She prodded, and Nevill fixed the woman with a firm stare. ‘If anything were to happen to me, will you promise to look after the farm and make sure that everything carries on as normal?’

‘Yes,’ Barbara said quietly, feeling shocked. ‘Of course.’ She then asked Nevill if he was seriously ill.

Nevill shook his head. ‘No, but I don’t think I’ve got long.’

It seemed a bizarre answer to Barbara. She had no idea that Nevill had been recently threatened with death, nor the identity of the person who had made that threat.

‘There’s so much to tell…’ said Nevill enigmatically. ‘I can’t bother you with all that. It’s not your burden. But if anything were to happen to me, you will promise me you’ll do that?’

‘Yes, of course I will.’

‘Of course,’ Nevill added, ‘the shooting season’s coming up… Living on a farm is a dangerous place and one never knows what’s going to happen…’ His voice tailed off and he looked away. ‘… I could go out one day shooting and you never know, do you? These things do happen. You can never tell…’ "

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #406 on: June 19, 2013, 09:46:AM »
Hi NN

A bit of pattern building here ie replying to your own posts  ;)

Where NB refers to the shooting season coming up and the farm being a dangerous place it could well be that NB was mindful of accidents based on the fact that he was involved in a shooting accident whereby his late father-in-law, Leslie Speakman, was blinded in one eye.  Apparently NB fired a shot which richocheted off a tree and hit LS in the eye blinding him.

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #407 on: June 19, 2013, 09:56:AM »
Ralph and June were not responsible for bringing Jeremy into the world...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #408 on: June 19, 2013, 10:00:AM »
Ralph and June were not responsible for bringing Jeremy into the world...

Neither were Ralph and June responsible for bringing Sheila into the world...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #409 on: June 19, 2013, 10:11:AM »
Elsewhere, it has been reported that at one time, Ralph allegedly said, " I had better keep my eye on those two", but to whom could he have been referring, surely not Sheila and Jeremy? Why would he be worried if these comments were linked to what he said to Barbara wilson, regarding the shooting season coming up soon, if Sheila did not know how to handle, load, and fire a gun?

Seems to me, Ralph must have been referring to two people who were experienced at firing guns, and that he was aware that a threat of some kind had been made against his life...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #410 on: June 19, 2013, 10:12:AM »
Ralph and June were not responsible for bringing Jeremy into the world...

Hi Mike

This is true but as far as I can see they gave JB a good upbrining in every respect and he would have no reason to feel any animosity towards them.  I share your view that at the heart of the tragedy is the toxic/dysfunctional/unhealthy relationship that clearly existed between June & SC.

On the genetic side we know that JB's full birth siblings are well balanced people of good character.


Offline maggie

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13651
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #411 on: June 19, 2013, 10:13:AM »
Hi NN

A bit of pattern building here ie replying to your own posts  ;)

Where NB refers to the shooting season coming up and the farm being a dangerous place it could well be that NB was mindful of accidents based on the fact that he was involved in a shooting accident whereby his late father-in-law, Leslie Speakman, was blinded in one eye.  Apparently NB fired a shot which richocheted off a tree and hit LS in the eye blinding him.
Hi NN
It is possible that Nevill's comments on the 'shooting season' etc. may have been spoken in a different context than the other comments.   'you bring children into the world and they seem so ungrateful' is probably repeated all over the world by parents at some time or another. ;D admittedly Nevill's children were adopted not born to Nevill, he may have forgotten at that moment but he also could have been speaking about a totally different situation or, for all we know, he may have had another child no one knew about?? 
This surely is the problem with reading too much into comments repeated out of context. They can be interpreted in so many different ways, first by the person repeating them and then further by whoever they are repeated to.
Haven't read Wilkes's book but it all sounds a bit dramatic to me. ;D ;D

Offline maggie

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13651
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #412 on: June 19, 2013, 10:14:AM »
Elsewhere, it has been reported that at one time, Ralph allegedly said, " I had better keep my eye on those two", but to whom could he have been referring, surely not Sheila and Jeremy? Why would he be worried if these comments were linked to what he said to Barbara wilson, regarding the shooting season coming up soon, if Sheila did not know how to handle, load, and fire a gun?

Seems to me, Ralph must have been referring to two people who were experienced at firing guns, and that he was aware that a threat of some kind had been made against his life...
I agree Mike, words are repeated out of context and then made to fit the situation, hearsay cannot be trusted imo

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #413 on: June 19, 2013, 10:20:AM »
Elsewhere, it has been reported that at one time, Ralph allegedly said, " I had better keep my eye on those two", but to whom could he have been referring, surely not Sheila and Jeremy? Why would he be worried if these comments were linked to what he said to Barbara wilson, regarding the shooting season coming up soon, if Sheila did not know how to handle, load, and fire a gun?

Seems to me, Ralph must have been referring to two people who were experienced at firing guns, and that he was aware that a threat of some kind had been made against his life...

Who might Ralph have been referring to, a couple of people who he had to be wary of during the shooting season, two people who had access to guns, who could both shoot, who he might unexpectedly meet up with on the surrounding farm land adjacent to whf - no suggestion that such a shooting might occur inside whf by use of any of his own weapons, because surely if that were the case, he would have got rid of all the guns, or made damn sure that none of them were accessible to outsiders, or anyone who might pose such a threat from within his own family...
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 10:31:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #414 on: June 19, 2013, 10:26:AM »
Neither were Ralph and June responsible for bringing Sheila into the world...

Agreed.  But the fact that June CHOSE to adopt SC and then as a result of that decision became so depressed she needed in-patient psychiatric care is a red flag for me.  I'm afraid the damage was done then and the rest as they say is sadly history  :'(

Perhaps due to June's strong religious beliefs and conservative values she viewed SC and JB differently in that SC's unmarried birth parents parted and JB's unmarried birth parents went on to marry.  June was aware of this as she kept in touch with JB's birth parents for the first 4 years of his life - I assume through an intermediary.  I don't believe any such contact existed between June and SC's birth parents who parted not sure if that was before SC was born or after.

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #415 on: June 19, 2013, 10:27:AM »
Who might Ralph have been referring to, a couple of people who he had to be wary of during the shooting season, two people who had access to guns, who could both shoot, who he might unexpectedly meet up with on the surrounding farm land adjacent to whf - no suggestion that such a shooting might occur inside whf by use of any of his own weapons, because surely if that were the case, he would have got rid of all the guns, or made damn sure that none of them were accessible to outsiders, or anyone who might pose such a threat from within his own family...

I don't think Sheila and Jeremy fitted the bill, in the context of Ralph Bamber having made such comments, weeks before the shootings, particularly if Sheila did not know one end of a gun from the other...
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 10:30:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline maggie

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13651
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #416 on: June 19, 2013, 10:37:AM »
Who might Ralph have been referring to, a couple of people who he had to be wary of during the shooting season, two people who had access to guns, who could both shoot, who he might meet unexpectedly meet up with on the surrounding farm land adjacent to whf - no suggestion that such a shooting might occur inside whf by use of any of his own weapons, because surely if that were the case, he would have got rid of all the guns, or made damn sure that none of them were accessible to outsiders, or anyone who might pose such a threat from within his own family...
I agree Mike, Nevill cannot have had any fears from within the home.  It seems he was decidedly sloppy with gun safety, not unusual amongst farmers at that time. However he was not a stupid man therefore any sign of danger from Jeremy or Sheila concerning guns would have caused him to at least make sure the guns were locked away out of reach.  He would never have agreed to the twins visiting in such a situation imo. 
Again these are quotations taken out of context and then later recalled by a woman who was obviously and understandably grief stricken by the deaths.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 10:38:AM by maggie »

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #417 on: June 19, 2013, 10:37:AM »
I don't think Sheila and Jeremy fitted the bill, in the context of Ralph Bamber having made such comments, weeks before the shootings, particularly if Sheila did not know one end of a gun from the other...

So which two people could Ralph have been referring to:-

(1) - Anthony Pargeter and Ralph Neville?
(2) - Peter Eaton and his brother?
(3) - Bobby Boutflour, and his son, David?
(4) - father / son connected to court case, where Ralph sentenced son to prison, and threats were made against Ralphs life, which caused him to go on long term sick leave from his post as a magistrate...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51079
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #418 on: June 19, 2013, 10:42:AM »
So which two people could Ralph have been referring to:-

(1) - Anthony Pargeter and Ralph Neville?
(2) - Peter Eaton and his brother?
(3) - Bobby Boutflour, and his son, David?
(4) - father / son connected to court case, where Ralph sentenced son to prison, and threats were made against Ralphs life, which caused him to go on long term sick leave from his post as a magistrate...

Or a permutation of any of the above pairings...

(5) - Anthony Pargeter and David Boutflour
(6) - Anthony Pargeter and Peter Eaton
(7) - David Boutflour and Peter Eaton
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 10:47:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline killingeve

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985
« Reply #419 on: June 19, 2013, 10:49:AM »
Hi NN
It is possible that Nevill's comments on the 'shooting season' etc. may have been spoken in a different context than the other comments.   'you bring children into the world and they seem so ungrateful' is probably repeated all over the world by parents at some time or another. ;D admittedly Nevill's children were adopted not born to Nevill, he may have forgotten at that moment but he also could have been speaking about a totally different situation or, for all we know, he may have had another child no one knew about?? 
This surely is the problem with reading too much into comments repeated out of context. They can be interpreted in so many different ways, first by the person repeating them and then further by whoever they are repeated to.
Haven't read Wilkes's book but it all sounds a bit dramatic to me. ;D ;D

Hi Maggie

When I copied that excerpt I didn't actually read it I was just remembering the jist of it from Wilkes' book and scanned it quickly from Shaw's draft.  When Mike posted that NB hadn't brought them into the world I was wondering what he actually meant by it  ;D ;D ;D  I see now  ;D ;D ;D  Just goes to show how things get lost in translation  ;D ;D ;D 

When I read Wilkes' I thought did NB have a birth child somewhere or was he referring to SC's reunion with her birth mother?  Neither make sense really as if NB had brought a child into the world but for whatever reason(s) hadn't brought him/her up then I don't think he could really claim that he/she shouldn't feel ungrateful just simply because he brought him/her into the world!  If referring to SC's reunion this doesn't make sense either really as NB obviously didn't bring SC into the world!  But it maybe if he felt that close to SC, which by all accounts he did, then he may simply have forgotten or it was a slip of the tounge and he meant he had brought SC up and given so much emotionally and materially that he couldn't understand why she would want to have a reunion with her birth mother.  Could this have been the reason that June and NB appeared tearful etc towards the end as opposed to Steve's claims it was all about JB?  I have heard from a very reliable source that June was aware of the reunion and apparently it broke her heart.  So I assume NB was aware too.