Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985

[maggie]

Actually,it wasn't Colin who "persuaded" the children to go to the farm that week. The boys didn't want to go and Colin was loathe to make them. But June had insisted on seeing them before Colin was to take them to visit his sister in Norway a week later. I have a feeling that June was a force to be reckoned with!

Yes tyler, I have read somewhere Jeremy describing her as 'strong minded'.......

[Jane]

That's possible april1 but you'd then have to see June as a hypocrite which I don't see with her doing all her charity work. I don't think she realized she was deliberately neglecting her children until she found she had lost them more through ignorance and inadvertance than anything. I don't see her as a Jeanette Winterson's mother figure at all;just people after the event do tend to blow things out of proportion.

Steve, it has never crossed my mind that June was a hypocrite and I truly believe she thought she was doing her Christian duty when she gave herself tirelessly to charity work. Those I know who knew her, whilst admitting that she was inclined to remain apart from a group at social activities, use words such as quiet, nice, reserved and kind when they speak of her. Not exactly vivacious descriptive words but on the other hand nobody has a BAD word to say of her so I would think it highly unlikely that those who hosted the event blew anything out of proportion, if anything they played it down.

How odd that you say that you "don't think she knew she deliberately neglecting her children."  I believe she would have been horrified to think that she was. She may simply have been doing what many of us do and following a pre-tried pattern because she didn't know how else to do it. That it seems she was unable to give her children unconditional love, on its own, doesn't make her a bad woman by any stretch of the imagination, but it may have made her a good woman who was not naturally suited to motherhood.

[Jane]

My I.T skills are poor and if anyone can reproduce the photograph on #56 in the thread below please do so. It shows a 16 year-old Jeremy in 1977 who at this stage seems to me to have got over his forced removal from home to Gresham's and is relieved to be back home. We have to ask ourselves just what happened in the intervening period of years leading up to the Autumn of 1984 when it's my belief he was planning to burn down the White House when he thought the whole family would be present over the Christmas period.

It's so often the case that it's the quiet boys who when they snap can turn out to be the deadliest. Maybe they overcompensate for some perceived loss of manhood or helplessness which Jeremy may have suffered after failing his O Levels,his own self-confidence returning upon acquiring some qualifications in the Sixth Form yet not fully restored when again he fails his A Levels. During this time of course we have June's illness in 1982 and Sheila's developing schizophrenia,which destabilizes Jeremy just at a time when most boys have grown out of their rebellious phase and make an incremental transition into adulthood.

Is this insecurity and the growing realization that he cannot possibly live up to his parents' expectations of settling down to a life on the farm the reason why Jeremy requites with a violence so terrible in its proportions?http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4030.45.html

Steve, for someone who on occasions has accused me of talking "psychobabble" I find  ironic your own attempts at wandering through the psychological maze

[Steve_uk]

I don't think the twins were mentally damaged in a way that was irreversible. So June wanted to see the twins,which again causes alarm in Jeremy where there certainly was emotional turmoil as the baby of the family saw himself being usurped by Nicholas and Daniel,not to mention any school fees which might ensue as they approached the age when Jeremy himself was sent away..

[Steve_uk]

Steve, it has never crossed my mind that June was a hypocrite and I truly believe she thought she was doing her Christian duty when she gave herself tirelessly to charity work. Those I know who knew her, whilst admitting that she was inclined to remain apart from a group at social activities, use words such as quiet, nice, reserved and kind when they speak of her. Not exactly vivacious descriptive words but on the other hand nobody has a BAD word to say of her so I would think it highly unlikely that those who hosted the event blew anything out of proportion, if anything they played it down.

How odd that you say that you "don't think she knew she deliberately neglecting her children."  I believe she would have been horrified to think that she was. She may simply have been doing what many of us do and following a pre-tried pattern because she didn't know how else to do it. That it seems she was unable to give her children unconditional love, on its own, doesn't make her a bad woman by any stretch of the imagination, but it may have made her a good woman who was not naturally suited to motherhood.

Well I'm sure the June-bashers will be surprised to read what you wrote. I'm not sure June had any pattern about bringing up children though;she seemed lost to me.

[Jane]

Well I'm sure the June-bashers will be surprised to read what you wrote. I'm not sure June had any pattern about bringing up children though;she seemed lost to me.

Steve, I don't think anyone has bashed June although her apparent lack of mothering skills have been. The woman who devoted herself to good works was, IMO, quite separate from the woman who was a mother. She would not have had her own pattern of child rearing if she was following a pattern laid down by another.

[maggie]

Steve, it has never crossed my mind that June was a hypocrite and I truly believe she thought she was doing her Christian duty when she gave herself tirelessly to charity work. Those I know who knew her, whilst admitting that she was inclined to remain apart from a group at social activities, use words such as quiet, nice, reserved and kind when they speak of her. Not exactly vivacious descriptive words but on the other hand nobody has a BAD word to say of her so I would think it highly unlikely that those who hosted the event blew anything out of proportion, if anything they played it down.
How odd that you say that you "don't think she knew she deliberately neglecting her children."  I
believe she would have been horrified to think that she was. She may simply have been doing
what many of us do and following a pre-tried pattern because she didn't know how else to do
It. That it seems she was unable to give her children unconditional love, on its own, doesn't
make her a bad woman by any stretch of the imagination, but it may have made her a good
woman who was not naturally suited to motherhood.

Hi April
I do think that is an excellent post. Its certainly true that not all mothers are born equal. Its true that  some are far more interested in psychology and behavoural issues than others, to some women and possibly more men the ologies are a bit of a mystery whereas Maths and Physics are facinating.  Within this framework we have the great mother, the good mother, the average mother etc down to the neglectful and abusive Mother. The reasons are I believe genetic and learned.........nature and nurture.   As you have said, i believe June really did her best but her own upbringing was possibly a poor template and her inherited genes meant she lacked the imagination to do things differently?

[Jane]

Ta for that, Maggie

[susan]

Hello april

I think June as a Mother did the very best she could some woman are just more natural to motherhood than others.  She did what she believed and was capable of.  One could ask what makes a good Mother being loving and kind as I am sure she was but maybe not always able to show her love as some woman find it very difficult to show their true feelings of love and show them in the best way they know how.  No set rules in my opinion for being a good Mother as quite often different children have different needs.  Every Mother thinks she knows best I know I did but was wrong on many occasions

[Jane]

Hello april

I think June as a Mother did the very best she could some woman are just more natural to motherhood than others.  She did what she believed and was capable of.  One could ask what makes a good Mother being loving and kind as I am sure she was but maybe not always able to show her love as some woman find it very difficult to show their true feelings of love and show them in the best way they know how.  No set rules in my opinion for being a good Mother as quite often different children have different needs.  Every Mother thinks she knows best I know I did but was wrong on many occasions

Susan HELLO :

I think it's possible or at least because I'm a romantic, I like to think so, that somewhere deep inside she was bubbling with excitement and bursting with love for Sheila, but I think those old testament teachings about the sin of fornication and the sins of the fathers being visited on the children unto the third generation chipped away and eroded the unconditional love. She would have needed to guard against Sheila following the same sinful path as her mother which would have meant Sheila following the strict rules she laid down for her safety. Only then might love be bestowed as a sign of approval.

[susan]

Hello april  I do agree to a certain extent June was in her own way protecting Sheila maybe over protecting her and she may have considered Sheila vunerable and needed looking after.  By the way I don't have a romantic bone in my body well perhaps towards the cats

[Steve_uk]

In the aftermath of the tragedies Colin turned to Elizabeth Kubler Ross and her teaching of the five stages of grief: 1) Denial-it hasn't happened,we go numb and go through the motions of existence.
             2) Anger-where is God in all this..how could Jeremy do it..?
             3)Bargaining-if your wife has terminal cancer you might plead with God to let her live. Or guilt(if
                only I hadn't done this..)
             4)Depression-withdrawing from social contact,possible thoughts of suicide.
             5)Acceptance-not to be confused with "oh well everything is okay now". It just means accepting
                that your loved one has gone and this is the new state of affairs. In accepting your grief you
                may start to form new social relationships.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/double-vision-aids-memories-of-pain-1143577.html

[Patti]

Hello april

I think June as a Mother did the very best she could some woman are just more natural to motherhood than others.  She did what she believed and was capable of.  One could ask what makes a good Mother being loving and kind as I am sure she was but maybe not always able to show her love as some woman find it very difficult to show their true feelings of love and show them in the best way they know how.  No set rules in my opinion for being a good Mother as quite often different children have different needs.  Every Mother thinks she knows best I know I did but was wrong on many occasions

Hi Susan

I doubt any parent is perfect.  I thought the world of mine, even though they failed to stay together during my younger life.  My parents never fell out in front of me, nor did I see them fight. However I do remember my mother leaving the poker in the fire once to hit my father with, but she didn't use.  They always remained sociable and always asked about one another and I know they both loved me very much and were never afraid to show it, I got plenty of hugs and kisses even when I married. 

I'm just sorry for my own children and feel I failed to provide them with loving parents.  I am all my children have.  My son and daughter are very close, we all are.  But there are times I wish I had a little more help....especially now with my son who wants to go to university....there is no way I could fund him for that...and it hurts....We can only do our best and give what we have to them. 

[Jane]

In the aftermath of the tragedies Colin turned to Elizabeth Kubler Ross and her teaching of the five stages of grief: 1) Denial-it hasn't happened,we go numb and go through the motions of existence.
             2) Anger-where is God in all this..how could Jeremy do it..?
             3)Bargaining-if your wife has terminal cancer you might plead with God to let her live. Or guilt(if
                only I hadn't done this..)
             4)Depression-withdrawing from social contact,possible thoughts of suicide.
             5)Acceptance-not to be confused with "oh well everything is okay now". It just means accepting
                that your loved one has gone and this is the new state of affairs. In accepting your grief you
                may start to form new social relationships.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/double-vision-aids-memories-of-pain-1143577.html

Thank you for that Steve. I did grief counselling as part of my training and we used the Kubler Ross guide amongst others. Perhaps she was one of the stepping stones which put Colin on the road to training as a therapist.

[susan]

Hi Patti  I was brought up very Yorkshire style family always stood together my parents always wanted the best for me but on so many occasions I thought they were wrong but as I reflect they were right. We give our children what we are able and I am sure your children love you for what you have given them a good family life and love that is what counts.  Your son can do what mine did work his way up the ladder do an open university course and get his degree.  Patti knowing you as I do I suspect you are an excellent Mother and what more could your children wish for than a lovely person as you