Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985

[maggie]

Nugs, sometines people can describe in paint what they can't describe in print.

Children certainly do draw and paint feelings they can't express in other ways.  Have seen it myself very recently.

[Jane]

Children certainly do draw and paint feelings they can't express in other ways.  Have seen it myself very recently.

Maggie, I witnessed it in someone close to 90.

[Steve_uk]

I think children can be far more resilient than you think. I attended church and Sunday school and remember colouring in sheets with Bible quotes such as "The Lord's My Shepherd" at the twins' age and it was just like doing a dot to dot book,nothing scary or with overt religious overtones. Ann Eaton said in her statement that June's religion was of a take-it-or-leave-it variety which she didn't force down people's throats and it's certainly out of character with her charity work. I think more likely the twins saw June in tears and as most children that age are sensitive to atmosphere it stuck in their minds and they put pencil to paper to encapsulate it.

Now I wonder what made June tearful and unnerved..

[Steve_uk]

Did Jeremy enquire at Colin's party as to when the twins would be visiting White House? Was Jeremy studying Colin in the aftermath of the murders to witness how somebody who was grief stricken might behave?http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2011/01/30/the-strange-case-of-jeremy-bamber/

You can read more about the forum members' views here:http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=972.0

[Caroline R]

I think children can be far more resilient than you think. I attended church and Sunday school and remember colouring in sheets with Bible quotes such as "The Lord's My Shepherd" at the twins' age and it was just like doing a dot to dot book,nothing scary or with overt religious overtones. Ann Eaton said in her statement that June's religion was of a take-it-or-leave-it variety which she didn't force down people's throats and it's certainly out of character with her charity work. I think more likely the twins saw June in tears and as most children that age are sensitive to atmosphere it stuck in their minds and they put pencil to paper to encapsulate it.

Now I wonder what made June tearful and unnerved..

But that doesn't fit with Colin's account!! I don't think the 'relatives' lived in the pockets of the Bambers and vice versa.

[Caroline R]

Did Jeremy enquire at Colin's party as to when the twins would be visiting White House? Was Jeremy studying Colin in the aftermath of the murders to witness how somebody who was grief stricken might behave?http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2011/01/30/the-strange-case-of-jeremy-bamber/

You can read more about the forum members' views here:http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=972.0

No

[Jane]

I think children can be far more resilient than you think. I attended church and Sunday school and remember colouring in sheets with Bible quotes such as "The Lord's My Shepherd" at the twins' age and it was just like doing a dot to dot book,nothing scary or with overt religious overtones. Ann Eaton said in her statement that June's religion was of a take-it-or-leave-it variety which she didn't force down people's throats and it's certainly out of character with her charity work. I think more likely the twins saw June in tears and as most children that age are sensitive to atmosphere it stuck in their minds and they put pencil to paper to encapsulate it.

Now I wonder what made June tearful and unnerved..

Steve I can promise you that the "gentle Jesus" who loved little children, to whom I was introduced in Sunday School was in NO way related to the vengeful, disapproving religion that my mother rammed down my throat along with her assurances that there was a little black devil who had taken up permanent residence on my shoulder. So if the only religious instruction the twins received was from June, it wasn't necessarily benign.I can also tell you quite catagorically that what AE said in her statement only applied to the June she knew and as there was no umbilical cord attaching Ann to June, Ann had know way of knowing. Family doesn't always see the "Us" that others see.

[Caroline R]

Steve I can promise you that the "gentle Jesus" who loved little children, to whom I was introduced in Sunday School was in NO way related to the vengeful, disapproving religion that my mother rammed down my throat along with her assurances that there was a little black devil who had taken up permanent residence on my shoulder. So if the only religious instruction the twins received was from June, it wasn't necessarily benign.I can also tell you quite catagorically that what AE said in her statement only applied to the June she knew and as there was no umbilical cord attaching Ann to June, Ann had know way of knowing. Family doesn't always see the "Us" that others see.

I got one of those!! 

[lookout]

I used to have " a black pig on my back " if I misbehaved,,,said mother. Still,,I suppose it was better than the devil. I don't know who was the daftest as I used to look in the mirror to see. .

[killingeve]

I think children can be far more resilient than you think. I attended church and Sunday school and remember colouring in sheets with Bible quotes such as "The Lord's My Shepherd" at the twins' age and it was just like doing a dot to dot book,nothing scary or with overt religious overtones. Ann Eaton said in her statement that June's religion was of a take-it-or-leave-it variety which she didn't force down people's throats and it's certainly out of character with her charity work. I think more likely the twins saw June in tears and as most children that age are sensitive to atmosphere it stuck in their minds and they put pencil to paper to encapsulate it.

Now I wonder what made June tearful and unnerved..

Hi Steve

Can children be "resilient" and "sensitive to atmosphere" without any adverse side effects?

Ann Eaton and I assume most others that June came into contact with were not born to unmarried parents/illegitimate or if they were she was most likely unaware.  Imo June had great difficulty accepting her adopted children and reconciling them with her religion and conservative values.  Especially when SC and JB had sexual relationships outside of marriage.  Instead of seeing this as perfectly 'normal' and acceptable behaviour for the era she saw it as the pair containing bad blood/acting devilish from within imo.  This was further extended to the twins being a product of SC, herself illegitimate, and CC who had a sexual relationship outside of marriage, a pregnancy terminated and divorced. 

RB's Wit Stat

"When June had her breakdown it was at a very difficult time for her.  Jeremy was cohabiting with a married woman, that was totally against her Christian belief.  I aslo found out after the trial from Agnes LOWE, June's war-time friend to whom she apparently confided in, that June had caught Sheila copulating with Colin Caffell in either the barn or a hayfield and after had to take Sheila to a London abortion [FOR MISCARRIAGE/NATURAL ABORTION?] or VD Clinic.  I can't recall which.  Knowing June I'm sure she would have asked God why? and with all these things apparently happening at the same time they probably caused the breakdown".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1646

[Jane]

I used to have " a black pig on my back " if I misbehaved,,,said mother. Still,,I suppose it was better than the devil. I don't know who was the daftest as I used to look in the mirror to see. .

Lookout, you weren't being daft at all. Your alternative was knowing that your mother was lying which is a very "old" lesson for a child to learn. Once it becomes obvious to a child that the all powerful maternal figure, the person who represents then childs security lies, who can the child trust? It's world becomes a very unsafe place to be.

Pigs, monkeys and devils clinging to childrens' backs may come under the heading of black adult humour but children don't understand adult humour, irony or sarcasm. However, they do believe everything that their significant adult tells them.

[Steve_uk]

Steve I can promise you that the "gentle Jesus" who loved little children, to whom I was introduced in Sunday School was in NO way related to the vengeful, disapproving religion that my mother rammed down my throat along with her assurances that there was a little black devil who had taken up permanent residence on my shoulder. So if the only religious instruction the twins received was from June, it wasn't necessarily benign.I can also tell you quite catagorically that what AE said in her statement only applied to the June she knew and as there was no umbilical cord attaching Ann to June, Ann had know way of knowing. Family doesn't always see the "Us" that others see.

That's possible april1 but you'd then have to see June as a hypocrite which I don't see with her doing all her charity work. I don't think she realized she was deliberately neglecting her children until she found she had lost them more through ignorance and inadvertance than anything. I don't see her as a Jeanette Winterson's mother figure at all;just people after the event do tend to blow things out of proportion.

[Steve_uk]

Hi Steve

Can children be "resilient" and "sensitive to atmosphere" without any adverse side effects?

Ann Eaton and I assume most others that June came into contact with were not born to unmarried parents/illegitimate or if they were she was most likely unaware.  Imo June had great difficulty accepting her adopted children and reconciling them with her religion and conservative values.  Especially when SC and JB had sexual relationships outside of marriage.  Instead of seeing this as perfectly 'normal' and acceptable behaviour for the era she saw it as the pair containing bad blood/acting devilish from within imo.  This was further extended to the twins being a product of SC, herself illegitimate, and CC who had a sexual relationship outside of marriage, a pregnancy terminated and divorced. 

RB's Wit Stat

"When June had her breakdown it was at a very difficult time for her.  Jeremy was cohabiting with a married woman, that was totally against her Christian belief.  I aslo found out after the trial from Agnes LOWE, June's war-time friend to whom she apparently confided in, that June had caught Sheila copulating with Colin Caffell in either the barn or a hayfield and after had to take Sheila to a London abortion [FOR MISCARRIAGE/NATURAL ABORTION?] or VD Clinic.  I can't recall which.  Knowing June I'm sure she would have asked God why? and with all these things apparently happening at the same time they probably caused the breakdown".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=513.0;attach=1646

Colin undid a lot of the damage if the children were emotionally damaged and it would have been Colin who persuaded them to accompany their mother to the Farm,though admittedly their clinginess to him spoke volumes that they didn't want to go.

[Steve_uk]

My I.T skills are poor and if anyone can reproduce the photograph on #56 in the thread below please do so. It shows a 16 year-old Jeremy in 1977 who at this stage seems to me to have got over his forced removal from home to Gresham's and is relieved to be back home. We have to ask ourselves just what happened in the intervening period of years leading up to the Autumn of 1984 when it's my belief he was planning to burn down the White House when he thought the whole family would be present over the Christmas period.

It's so often the case that it's the quiet boys who when they snap can turn out to be the deadliest. Maybe they overcompensate for some perceived loss of manhood or helplessness which Jeremy may have suffered after failing his O Levels,his own self-confidence returning upon acquiring some qualifications in the Sixth Form yet not fully restored when again he fails his A Levels. During this time of course we have June's illness in 1982 and Sheila's developing schizophrenia,which destabilizes Jeremy just at a time when most boys have grown out of their rebellious phase and make an incremental transition into adulthood.

Is this insecurity and the growing realization that he cannot possibly live up to his parents' expectations of settling down to a life on the farm the reason why Jeremy requites with a violence so terrible in its proportions?http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4030.45.html

[tyler]

Actually,it wasn't Colin who "persuaded" the children to go to the farm that week. The boys didn't want to go and Colin was loathe to make them. But June had insisted on seeing them before Colin was to take them to visit his sister in Norway a week later. I have a feeling that June was a force to be reckoned with!