Daniel and Nicholas Caffell: 22 June 1979-7 August 1985

[maggie]

Morning Maggie

CC discusses the drawings in his book as the twins discussed them with CC's mother, Mrs Brencher.  I read the book very quickly and really need to read it again but off the top of my head Mrs Brencher with hindsight, always a wonderful thing as we know, felt that the twins were trying to alert her to various issues.  My partner currently has the book at his office so when I recover it I will post up the interpretation.  Perhaps this will then shed some light on whether the drawings were about WHF or as you put it "their take on 'home' with their mother".

There is much evidence to show that family dysfunction is cyclical and imo this can be evidenced here too:

June

Mental illness - according to Dr F caused by her decision to adopt.
Unintentional neglect of SC leading up to her hospitalisation '59?
Insecurity for SC?

SC

Mental illness - root cause unknown - possibly connected to June above?
Unintentional neglect of twins as stated in CC's letter intended for NB
Insecurity for twins?

Hi NN thank you for your post.
I haven't read Colin's book.  I was just considering that although there may have been reasons for the twins to be uncomfortable at WHF they were not there very often therefore to assume those deeply troubled drawings by Daniel and Nicholas were caused only by the time spent here was only half the story.  To me it signifies the boys were deeply troubled in their day to day life.

If they were secure and happy boys, granny's religious ramblings wouldn't have much effect I wouldn't have thought.  Just relating to my own children, they may not have liked it and it may have worried them but as a small part of their secure lives it wouldn't have caused them to become so troubled. imo

I understand how mental illness can be cyclical and no doubt June's own upbringing possibly contributed to her own illness.   Just pointing out that Sheila's mental illness would have had a much bigger impact on the twins as June's no doubt did on Sheila rather than Granny Speakman's mental health, whatever that was.

I think I am saying we agree.

[killingeve]

Hi NN thank you for your post.
I haven't read Colin's book.  I was just considering that although there may have been reasons for the twins to be uncomfortable at WHF they were not there very often therefore to assume those deeply troubled drawings by Daniel and Nicholas were caused only by the time spent here was only half the story.  To me it signifies the boys were deeply troubled in their day to day life.

If they were secure and happy boys, granny's religious ramblings wouldn't have much effect I wouldn't have thought.  Just relating to my own children, they may not have liked it and it may have worried them but as a small part of their secure lives it wouldn't have caused them to become so troubled. imo

I understand how mental illness can be cyclical and no doubt June's own upbringing possibly contributed to her own illness.   Just pointing out that Sheila's mental illness would have had a much bigger impact on the twins as June's no doubt did on Sheila rather than Granny Speakman's mental health, whatever that was.

I think I am saying we agree.

Hi Maggie

Without referring back to the book I honestly couldn't say what the take on the drawings was.  I read all the books on the case very quickly and really need to read them again and make notes.  I do recall though that according to the book/CC, the twins were very upset by June's religiosity.  June also manged to deviously steal some time alone with the twins at SC's flat whilst SC was away in hospital and they all ended up praying.  CC had specifically asked June not to do this. I don't see June's religiosity as being something kind and gentle that a granny might do eg read a comforting bible story akin to something from Enid Blyton with a happy ending.  I see it as more what we've seen in Dr F's wit stats with June and SC ie Good/Evil, God/Devil thing which imo is likely to upset and frighten small children.  Hence CC's letter intended for NB where he makes very strong reference to June's religiosity and his fear that it might fuck up the minds of the twins in the same way that in his opinion it did SC's.  Misguided religion can be a very dangerous thing in my view as evidenced by the so-called preachers of hate who radicalise young muslims into carrying out various atrocities.  Not suggesting June's religiosity was akin to this but all the same corrosive in its effect on SC's mind.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=7232

When I recover the book I will be in position to quote various excerpts and you can make of it what you will.

I think CC was a good father and it appears the twins were secure enough.  For example on the Saturday before the tragedy they allowed JM to put them to bed/read them a story.  Small children don't normally take to those they see infrequently unless secure enough.

I have no idea about June's upbrining or the mental health of June's mother, Mrs Speakman, but there's no formal record of June having any mental health issues prior to her decision to adopt as per Dr F's wit stats.  In the absence of any supporting evidence any suggestion otherwise is merely speculation. There's no record of PB having any mental health issues or relationship issues with AE/DB.

[maggie]

Hi Maggie

Without referring back to the book I honestly couldn't say what the take on the drawings was.  I read all the books on the case very quickly and really need to read them again and make notes.  I do recall though that according to the book/CC, the twins were very upset by June's religiosity.  June also manged to deviously steal some time alone with the twins at SC's flat whilst SC was away in hospital and they all ended up praying.  CC had specifically asked June not to do this. I don't see June's religiosity as being something kind and gentle that a granny might do eg read a comforting bible story akin to something from Enid Blyton with a happy ending.  I see it as more what we've seen in Dr F's wit stats with June and SC ie Good/Evil, God/Devil thing which imo is likely to upset and frighten small children.  Hence CC's letter intended for NB where he makes very strong reference to June's religiosity and his fear that it might fuck up the minds of the twins in the same way that in his opinion it did SC's.  Misguided religion can be a very dangerous thing in my view as evidenced by the so-called preachers of hate who radicalise young muslims into carrying out various atrocities.  Not suggesting June's religiosity was akin to this but all the same corrosive in its effect on SC's mind.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=7232

When I recover the book I will be in position to quote various excerpts and you can make of it what you will.

I think CC was a good father and it appears the twins were secure enough.  For example on the Saturday before the tragedy they allowed JM to put them to bed/read them a story.  Small children don't normally take to those they see infrequently unless secure enough.

I have no idea about June's upbrining or the mental health of June's mother, Mrs Speakman, but there's no formal record of June having any mental health issues prior to her decision to adopt as per Dr F's wit stats.  In the absence of any supporting evidence any suggestion otherwise is merely speculation. There's no record of PB having any mental health issues or relationship issues with AE/DB.

Hi NN
I wasn't suggesting that June's religious obsessions were cosy and granny like. I am not that niaive. I am saying they would possibly not have had as huge an impression if the boys had a more secure life over the years they were with Sheila. 
Maybe it was a combination but their home was with Sheila their mother and that is where they would form the opinion of home.  I can't see how any feelings of WHF would colour their imaginations and affect them so deeply in a psychological way that they would produce such drawings, they didn't spend enough time there. June may have frightened them but she wasn't their main carer and WHT was not their home. 
Neither am I saying Colin wasn't a good father but the damage done to the boys over the Sheila years must have affected them deeply.  Again, I am not criticising Sheila as she was very ill and I'm sure would not ever have intended to damage them. I am certainly not accusing anyone of intentionally damaging the boys but just making a general observation. 
I have seen, just lately, how a child can be damaged by a mother with mental illness and the neglect which is inevitable in such a situation.  A change of circumstances can only change their present, the damage done is a much more difficult thing to deal with.
The boys no doubt needed counselling which coincidentally is managed using drawings of home etc. which helps them to express their emotions and then to speak about the drawings and what they mean to them.    imo 

[lookout]

Maggie,,those drawings that the boys did at school should have been called to question if the teacher had been doing her job properly. As we all know,,this is how teachers get an insight into home life.

[nugnug]

i dont think the drawings really mean that much i mean kids draw strange drawings sometimes.

[maggie]

i dont think the drawings really mean that much i mean kids draw strange drawings sometimes.

That is true nug nug they do but using drawings as expressing feelings is the accepted way of counselling children these days.  ie if the chid draws disturbing pictures of 'home' it flags up an area of concern which can then be talked about.   

[lookout]

i dont think the drawings really mean that much i mean kids draw strange drawings sometimes.

Nugs,,,the difference is that my great/grandchildren have always drawn smiley faces on everything,,the sun,,the flowers and figures of the family,from 4 years of age since starting school. No sadness shown in their initial beginnings at infant school.
It's surprising what you can pick up on in a drawing,,from anyone really,it doesn't have to be children. 

[tyler]

Pictures were drawn whilst the boys were staying at Colins mothers house,not whilst at school.

[nugnug]

all i can see that it means is they had a good imagenation.

[killingeve]

all i can see that it means is they had a good imagenation.

Hi Nugnug

Quite likely as their father is/was a professional artist. 

Although art therapy is an established branch of psychotherapy often used with children as they tend to express themselves via drawing, painting, playing with sand etc at an age when they have limited verbal skills.

[nugnug]

i think that threapists sometimes read to much into drawings though.

[lookout]

i think that threapists sometimes read to much into drawings though.

Yes,,I can go along with that as well nugs.It's called  being over-zealous,,and unfortunately ,or fortunately in some cases,it does happen and can cause ructions.

[nugnug]

i think they spend so much time looking for hidden meanings in things they start seeing them when there not there.

[lookout]

i think they spend so much time looking for hidden meanings in things they start seeing them when there not there.

Indeed,nugs,,I agree. Instead of admitting defeat,,they end up making a meal of it,,particularly if mistakes are made,,then it's to justify their reasons to have shown interest in the first place.
It goes on all the time,I'm afraid,especially anywhere that's attached to the government or councils.

[Jane]

i think they spend so much time looking for hidden meanings in things they start seeing them when there not there.

Nugs, sometines people can describe in paint what they can't describe in print.