Operational schedules - key moments of investigation at scene...

[Roch]

Everywhere you look, once the nature of the investigation changed from being one of four murders and a suicide (SC/688/85), into five murders (SC/786/85), Steps were being taken to try and extract DCI 'Terry'Gibbons from the inevitable mire, concerning the original presence of Sheila's body, downstairs upon entry - here is another entry extracted from a confidential report:-

Which document/s show that DCI Gibbons was at the scene from an early stage?

[mike tesko]

Which document/s show that DCI Gibbons was at the scene from an early stage?

[killingeve]

Possible others: WPc Susan Dixon (3115) and WPc Alison Bourne (3220), the second being a firearms officer.

Thank you Reader   

I wasn't actually aware of the above but added to the three I've mentioned I think we can safely say that overall (police, forensics, legal, jounalists, authors, etc) female input was minimal. 

I think I'm right in saying the jury comprised 7 males and 5 females?  I wouldn't mind betting that the two jurors who found not guilty were female.   I also wouldn't mind betting that had the jury been evenly gender balanced another female juror might have found not guilty either because she interpreted the info differently during trial, or the females collectively were able to assert themselves more/change dynamics generally during deliberations.  Bearing in mind the trial was '86 and females generally speaking then were not as confident in asserting themselves as they are today

Had all those involved pre-trial (police, forensics, legal, journalists etc) have been gender balanced I doubt the case would ever have got near a court as females would have brought a different perspective to the case 

I am no raving feminist (I like men far too much for that  ) but imo JB's case being dominated by males has done him no favours at all.  Oh yes and all the appeal court judges male too.  And I wouldn't mind betting that the majority at the ccrc are all male. 

Its a statistical fact that those that stand accused in criminal trials are usually male.  Whether it be fraud, robbery, drug dealing, violence, murders, rapes, paedophilia etc.  Therefore it makes little difference if the majority involved pre-trial and during trial are male as the information presented to the jury is being used to judge male behaviour (sorry guys). Whereas for those of us that believe JB is innocent, imo we are essentially looking at female behaviour: complex issues associated with a mentally ill adoptive mother and a mentally ill adopted daughter relationship that went very wrong from the beginning and ended in SC meeting her birth mother for the first time only weeks before the murders.  The timing of this reunion was no coincidence imo and potentially as much the catalyst for the tragedy as proposals for foster care of the twins were.

Yet who was it that put forward the motivation for the murders...it appears to have been DI Bob Miller at 23.30 in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-OlvzCVrmc

"The only person with any motive to kill all of that family not rob the house not burglarise the house just to go in and kill a complete family the only motivation could of been the inheritance".  Could it?  Or could it be that as DI Bob Miller is male he is unable to see other possibilities and explanations?

[killingeve]

Added to the above imo the other crucial elements are:

- A woman scorned

- Family greed

Imo females will pick up on the above in a way that males will not.

[Caroline R]

Hi Lookout

I understand you now know who he is but I'm just posting the following for general interest on the forum:

Mike Gradwell featured in last year's ITV docu at 11.26, 13.03, 19.25 and highlights many inconsistencies etc and yet at 22.50 declares JB to have been a cold blooded calculated killer 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo

Here he is again in a Guardian Vid at 6.40 highlighting inconsistences.  This vid was produced before the above

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPRd912xv9M

I cannot tell you how put out I am that those that have been capable of influencing the direction of the case in any sort of professional capacity are nearly all male as you will see from the above      Why? Off the top of my head the only females that spring to mind are WPC Jeapes, Glynnis Howard and author of Murder at WHF, Claire Powell.  So we end up having a controversial case decided on almost exclusively by males and lacking from female perspective.  I'm not a raving feminist on the contrary but I'm not happy with the above at all.

Hi NN, completely agree!! Check out 9.20 where Bew's states that the silencer wasn't discovered until a 'couple of WEEKS' after the tragedy!! How could he possibly make such a blunder regarding such a crucial aspect of the case? The whole evidence in respect to this silence is dodgy beyond belief - all too convenient, with it's blob of blood, the paint and the enigmatic hair!! The only thing missing from the silencer was a rolled up photograph of Jeremy wielding the gun and if they could have photo shopped one and concealed it inside the damn thing, I'm sure they would have!! 

[Jane]

Hi NN, completely agree!! Check out 9.20 where Bew's states that the silencer wasn't discovered until a 'couple of WEEKS' after the tragedy!! How could he possibly make such a blunder regarding such a crucial aspect of the case? The whole evidence in respect to this silence is dodgy beyond belief - all too convenient, with it's blob of blood, the paint and the enigmatic hair!! The only thing missing from the silencer was a rolled up photograph of Jeremy wielding the gun and if they could have photo shopped one and concealed it inside the damn thing, I'm sure they would have!! 

"The only thing missing from the silencer was a rolled up photograph of Jeremy wielding the gun.........." and possibly for further clarification an inserted flag bearing the legend "Jeremy wuz here."

[Roch]

Everywhere you look, once the nature of the investigation changed from being one of four murders and a suicide (SC/688/85), into five murders (SC/786/85), Steps were being taken to try and extract DCI 'Terry'Gibbons from the inevitable mire, concerning the original presence of Sheila's body, downstairs upon entry - here is another entry extracted from a confidential report:-

Mike, is the statement you have provided from Gibbons dated before or after SC/786/85 came in to existance? I think it's after, which undermines your argument.  Also, re the excerpts of the report you have provided... they appear to be so easily undermined by simple reference to Gibbon's statement?  I could understand better the argument you are making, if Gibbons had provided an contradictory statement which replaced the one you have posted up?

[Steve_uk]

Hi Lookout

I understand you now know who he is but I'm just posting the following for general interest on the forum:

Mike Gradwell featured in last year's ITV docu at 11.26, 13.03, 19.25 and highlights many inconsistencies etc and yet at 22.50 declares JB to have been a cold blooded calculated killer 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo

Here he is again in a Guardian Vid at 6.40 highlighting inconsistences.  This vid was produced before the above

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPRd912xv9M

I cannot tell you how put out I am that those that have been capable of influencing the direction of the case in any sort of professional capacity are nearly all male as you will see from the above      Why? Off the top of my head the only females that spring to mind are WPC Jeapes, Glynnis Howard and author of Murder at WHF, Claire Powell.  So we end up having a controversial case decided on almost exclusively by males and lacking from female perspective.  I'm not a raving feminist on the contrary but I'm not happy with the above at all.

At 18:56 in your first video Simon McKay is confusing the burn marks on Nevill's back which could well have been made after all five victims were dead and therefore the silencer was off the weapon with the earlier incident in the kitchen when there was a struggle and the silencer came into contact with the mantleshelf.

[mike tesko]

Mike, is the statement you have provided from Gibbons dated before or after SC/786/85 came in to existance? I think it's after, which undermines your argument.  Also, re the excerpts of the report you have provided... they appear to be so easily undermined by simple reference to Gibbon's statement?  I could understand better the argument you are making, if Gibbons had provided an contradictory statement which replaced the one you have posted up?

[killingeve]

At 18:56 in your first video Simon McKay is confusing the burn marks on Nevill's back which could well have been made after all five victims were dead and therefore the silencer was off the weapon with the earlier incident in the kitchen when there was a struggle and the silencer came into contact with the mantleshelf.

Hi Steve_uk

Can you let him know please http://www.mckaylaw.co.uk/Solicitors/contacts.htm

[killingeve]

Thank you Reader   

I wasn't actually aware of the above but added to the three I've mentioned I think we can safely say that overall (police, forensics, legal, jounalists, authors, etc) female input was minimal. 

I think I'm right in saying the jury comprised 7 males and 5 females?  I wouldn't mind betting that the two jurors who found not guilty were female.   I also wouldn't mind betting that had the jury been evenly gender balanced another female juror might have found not guilty either because she interpreted the info differently during trial, or the females collectively were able to assert themselves more/change dynamics generally during deliberations.  Bearing in mind the trial was '86 and females generally speaking then were not as confident in asserting themselves as they are today

Had all those involved pre-trial (police, forensics, legal, journalists etc) have been gender balanced I doubt the case would ever have got near a court as females would have brought a different perspective to the case 

I am no raving feminist (I like men far too much for that  ) but imo JB's case being dominated by males has done him no favours at all.  Oh yes and all the appeal court judges male too.  And I wouldn't mind betting that the majority at the ccrc are all male. 

Its a statistical fact that those that stand accused in criminal trials are usually male.  Whether it be fraud, robbery, drug dealing, violence, murders, rapes, paedophilia etc.  Therefore it makes little difference if the majority involved pre-trial and during trial are male as the information presented to the jury is being used to judge male behaviour (sorry guys). Whereas for those of us that believe JB is innocent, imo we are essentially looking at female behaviour: complex issues associated with a mentally ill adoptive mother and a mentally ill adopted daughter relationship that went very wrong from the beginning and ended in SC meeting her birth mother for the first time only weeks before the murders.  The timing of this reunion was no coincidence imo and potentially as much the catalyst for the tragedy as proposals for foster care of the twins were.

Yet who was it that put forward the motivation for the murders...it appears to have been DI Bob Miller at 23.30 in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-OlvzCVrmc

"The only person with any motive to kill all of that family not rob the house not burglarise the house just to go in and kill a complete family the only motivation could of been the inheritance".  Could it?  Or could it be that as DI Bob Miller is male he is unable to see other possibilities and explanations?

Hi NN

Beats train spotting I guess.  Do you have any other interesting hobbies or are you just seriously SAD?  Do you ever wonder what it might be like to be balanced and rounded?  Anyway just so you don't feel like Billy No Mates here's a little something to cheer you up:

Verdict By Gender

7 Males          :  Guilty           58.33%
                          Not Guilty          0%

5 Females      :  Guilty           24.99%
                         Not Guilty     16.66%

[tyler]

NN,you were correct when you guessed that the two jury members who voted "not guilty" were women. Allegedly they were both in tears when JB was convicted.

[killingeve]

NN,you were correct when you guessed that the two jury members who voted "not guilty" were women. Allegedly they were both in tears when JB was convicted.

Hi Tyler

Thanks for the clarification.  I had read it somewhere, perhaps Wilkes' book but wasn't too sure how reliable it was.  But I know your posts are always tip-top 

Btw for months I've been fascinated and keep meaning to ask why on your posts to the left of the thread title etc a little icon of what looks like a mobile phone appears?  Whereas most posts have what appears to be a couple of sheets of paper or a paper clip if attachments are included?

[tyler]

Hi Tyler

Thanks for the clarification.  I had read it somewhere, perhaps Wilkes' book but wasn't too sure how reliable it was.  But I know your posts are always tip-top 

Btw for months I've been fascinated and keep meaning to ask why on your posts to the left of the thread title etc a little icon of what looks like a mobile phone appears?  Whereas most posts have what appears to be a couple of sheets of paper or a paper clip if attachments are included?

NN,mobile phone icon appears when the poster is using the internet on their mobile phone. I have to post on my Blackberry alot as family members like to hog the pc and laptop in this house