Author Topic: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"  (Read 130678 times)

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Offline Daniel_day

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #810 on: May 25, 2013, 11:44:AM »
Morning Daniel

I can only report on what I read on here and the experiment that ngb carried out.  AE it would appear stated the tampax had been cut with scissors so has to clean the inside of the silencer.  The silencer was handled by so many people before it was handed to the police it would have been so contaminated so what makes you think Jeremy Bamber wiped it.
I dont want to be rather obvious here, but since I believe Bamber to be the culprit then he is the most likliest person to have wiped it down.
Because it is cut doesn't mean that he intended to use it to clean it internally. Like most men (myself included) they would not know one end of a tampon from the other.

Offline killingeve

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #811 on: May 25, 2013, 11:50:AM »
It would seem so NN. In my opinion he may have wiped it quickly and replaced it back into the cupboard. Never in his wildest dreams did he imagine that it would be looked at forensically - why would it? The rifle was found without a silencer and the dots would never be connected - or so he thought.
David Boutflour stated that when he felt it, it was "sticky to the touch and the bluing (a film which protects the metal on the silencer) had been damaged.The gnarly end was also damaged" (these are uniform grooves made by the manufacturer on the end of the silencer)
What Boutflour was saying was that there was no blood smears but a sticky residue. This would be entirely consistent with it having been wiped down.

DD I am afraid again you are simply wrong in your assertions.  May I again refer you to the relevant points within the CoA doc as follows:

Recovery of the sound moderator

73.   On 10 August 1985 members of the family, who were far from convinced that Sheila Caffell had been responsible for the killings, went to White House Farm with the executor of the estate, Basil Cock. During the afternoon David Boutflour found the sound moderator together with the telescopic sights for the murder weapon at the back of the gun cupboard in the downstairs office. His father, his sister Ann Eaton, the executor and the farm secretary all witnessed the recovery.
74.   The silencer was taken to Ann Eaton's address for safekeeping and that evening members of the family examined it. They noticed that the "gun blue" of the surface had been damaged and there appeared to be red paint and blood upon it. The moderator was packaged up and the police were informed of the discovery. When collected by DS Jones on 12 August he noticed a grey hair, about an inch long attached to it. By the time the moderator had been delivered to the Forensic Science Service at Huntingdon the hair had been lost.

Scientific examination of the sound moderator

75.   Traces of blood in the form of smears were found in three places on the outside of the moderator: on the flat surface at the muzzle end, in the knurled end and in the ridge at the gun end of the device. The blood on the outside of the moderator was confirmed to be of human origin but there were insufficient quantities to permit grouping analysis.

Offline killingeve

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #812 on: May 25, 2013, 12:05:PM »
Just hoovered fiercly, needed that clean feeling, and now I am gulping down a cold beer, maybe I will need something stronger. The dose will be adjusted until I forget entirely! You can expect some nonsense, apologies in advance!

Hi Alias
 
I love hoovering fiercely.  I have a Sebo which is hospital grade.  Its an ugly looking hoover but does a great job and helps alleviate my ocd  ;D ;D ;D

Love beer too.  Most of the girls on here are wine drinkers.  I used to drink Elephant beer but sadly Carlsberg stopped brewing it  :'( :'( :'(  Like wine too:

Beer and then wine you'll feel fine  :)

Wine and then beer you'll feel queer  :'(

CALLING PATTI  Just a thought but if you are up for 'pulling' I can thoroughly recommend beer festivals for quantity and quality  :)  Its a myth they're full of weirdy beardy types. 

Lugg

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #813 on: May 25, 2013, 12:20:PM »
It would seem so NN. In my opinion he may have wiped it quickly and replaced it back into the cupboard. Never in his wildest dreams did he imagine that it would be looked at forensically - why would it? The rifle was found without a silencer and the dots would never be connected - or so he thought.
David Boutflour stated that when he felt it, it was "sticky to the touch and the bluing (a film which protects the metal on the silencer) had been damaged.The gnarly end was also damaged" (these are uniform grooves made by the manufacturer on the end of the silencer)
What Boutflour was saying was that there was no blood smears but a sticky residue. This would be entirely consistent with it having been wiped down.
I can't remember if the silencer was fingerprinted or not? It it had been used every day or frequently then we would expect it to contain many different fingerprints. If however it had been wiped down so to speak then one would only expect to find David Boutflour's fingerprints?

Caroline R

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #814 on: May 25, 2013, 12:26:PM »
It would seem so NN. In my opinion he may have wiped it quickly and replaced it back into the cupboard. Never in his wildest dreams did he imagine that it would be looked at forensically - why would it? The rifle was found without a silencer and the dots would never be connected - or so he thought.
David Boutflour stated that when he felt it, it was "sticky to the touch and the bluing (a film which protects the metal on the silencer) had been damaged.The gnarly end was also damaged" (these are uniform grooves made by the manufacturer on the end of the silencer)
What Boutflour was saying was that there was no blood smears but a sticky residue. This would be entirely consistent with it having been wiped down.

Ann Eaton describes seeing 'a blob' of blood which resembled 'jam' on the knurled end of the 'moderator'. David Boutflour described how it could be peeled off with a razor blades and later it seemed to sprout grey hair when handed to DS Jones. I very much doubt that any such 'blob' would survive after a wipe down, a hasty return to the gun cupboard, discovery and transport to Ann Eatons house, a pass round the table etc. Etc. However, from the many observations and handling it received, it doesn't take a genius to realise that if a hair ever existed, it got there by contamination as it wast seen by anyone who scrutinised it over the weekend. This blood some how later became 'a smear' now it's not only too meager to scrape with a razor blade but there isn't enough to identify the source but there IS 'just' enough to highlight it as a source of interest!! The previous day the moderator and sights came under some discussion during a conversation with Taff Jones as the family laid out their suspicions and then low and behold they find said silencer covered in the crumbs of their suspicions the very next day. The moderator is all too convenient.

Offline susan

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #815 on: May 25, 2013, 12:29:PM »
Hello Lugg seem to think it had been used as a paper weight at some stage on a police officer's desk :'( so many people had handled that silencer and the police did not recover it and bag it as evidence every tom dick and harry held it. :'( if it was so well hidden what prompted the relatives to go searching for it as the gun cupboard is very deep under the stairs I believe it was not a case of opening a door and it was there sitting on a shelf.

Offline maggie

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #816 on: May 25, 2013, 12:29:PM »
Erm, yes it was. This is what evidence was used in a court of law. Now if you say there is NO evidence YOU have the onus to prove otherwise. If you cannot then it stands.
That's the way the law works Maggie whether you like it or not.
Your second point is down to statistical plausibility. If Jeremy Bamber phoned the police to say that his father had phoned him, then that implies he had knowledge of something was wrong at the farm BEFORE the police did. Now if Sheila could not have put that silencer back in the cupboard - Jeremy Bamber certainly did.
In 1985 it was established that the blood found in the silencer was the same grouping as that of Sheila.  It was argued that this was actually animal blood but this has been shown to be impossible due to the presence of a certain enzyme in its make up.  The blood could have belonged to someone else but the question has to be asked as to how a strangers blood could find its way into a silencer which was purchased new and has only ever belonged to the Bamber family?
This aside, a breakthrough came with DNA testing in 2001 and just ahead of Bamber's 2002 appeal.  The silencer was tested thoroughly with the baffles all being minutely tested.  A sample of DNA was given by Sheila's birth mother who lives in Canada. Advances in forensic science methods led to the recovery of DNA from inside the sound moderator which returned 17 markers out of 20 as a match to Sheila which was substantially better than the maximum coincidence rate of thirteen. The DNA was found on the baffles deepest within the silencer.  The chances of anyone else having the same DNA is some 100 million to 1. The chances of someone else having the same DNA who also had access to the silencer is billions to one.  I must add that it was not determined by test if this DNA came from blood as the quantity was too small.  However, given the results of the blood analysis in 1985 and the results of the DNA analysis done in 2001 it doesn't take much to realise that it was Sheila's blood found in the silencer.
It is almost certain that blood and DNA belonging to Sheila was found in the sound moderator. 
In short Maggie, it WAS Sheila's blood inside the silencer. Now I will ask you a question; how did the silencer find it's way back into the cupboard if the person who's blood is inside the silencer is dead and found in a completely different area of the house? Sheila could not have shot herself with the sound moderator attached nor could she have returned it to the gun cupboard after shooting herself twice in the throat.
This, among other evidence was enough for me to conclude that Sheila did not murder her family. There is absolutely zero evidence that she murdered her family, there is no plausible method or believable scenario on how she murdered her family and no-one can prove she murdered her family. If this be the case, and there is no reasons to believe otherwise, then she has been maliciously maligned, shamefully castigated and her memory desecrated.
Now if Sheila did not murder her family - and I want you to consider the implications of that statement bearing in mind what I have just said -who in your mind did?
Thanks for the lecture on the case. Daniel ;D  I'm not stupid Daniel and I have read the archives.  The evidence was used in a court of law but that evidence could very well have been flawed.  It just depends whether you are a sheep in mentality or a thinker.  I am aware that Jeremy Bamber has to prove his innocence.
As for statistics, well they can be made to support any theory and as I said I don't need a lecture from you thanks.  I really think you should improve your inter personal skills because in the world of work you will struggle for success if you speak to your colleagues etc. in the same manner as you have addressed me.

Offline maggie

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #817 on: May 25, 2013, 12:34:PM »
Ann Eaton describes seeing 'a blob' of blood which resembled 'jam' on the knurled end of the 'moderator'. David Boutflour described how it could be peeled off with a razor blades and later it seemed to sprout grey hair when handed to DS Jones. I very much doubt that any such 'blob' would survive after a wipe down, a hasty return to the gun cupboard, discovery and transport to Ann Eatons house, a pass round the table etc. Etc. However, from the many observations and handling it received, it doesn't take a genius to realise that if a hair ever existed, it got there by contamination as it wast seen by anyone who scrutinised it over the weekend. This blood some how later became 'a smear' now it's not only too meager to scrape with a razor blade but there isn't enough to identify the source but there IS 'just' enough to highlight it as a source of interest!! The previous day the moderator and sights came under some discussion during a conversation with Taff Jones as the family laid out their suspicions and then low and behold they find said silencer covered in the crumbs of their suspicions the very next day. The moderator is all too convenient.
I have to agree Caroline the whole 'blob of jam' silencer episode is questionable and for all the reasons you have given imo.  It has a whiff of amateurism about it, just sayin ;D ;D 

Offline susan

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #818 on: May 25, 2013, 12:35:PM »
Daniel simple answer the silencer never left the cupboard until it was found by the relatives who kept it for days then handed it to the police.  Some investigation I may add by EP if they leave important crime scene items to outsiders to discover.  Laughable.  No I will not yawn or stretch I do not have a need ;D May I suggest to you Daniel before you post some of your posts you inhale deeply then exhale you will feel less stressed than you appear to be just now.

Lugg

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #819 on: May 25, 2013, 12:47:PM »
Hello Lugg seem to think it had been used as a paper weight at some stage on a police officer's desk :'( so many people had handled that silencer and the police did not recover it and bag it as evidence every tom dick and harry held it. :'( if it was so well hidden what prompted the relatives to go searching for it as the gun cupboard is very deep under the stairs I believe it was not a case of opening a door and it was there sitting on a shelf.
I that is so Susan, then as I have said before the silencer should not have been entered as evidence at the trial. Because it had been contaminated.

Offline Patti

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #820 on: May 25, 2013, 12:49:PM »
I agree with your synopsis Lugg, but if you are looking at it from a standpoint where you require hard physical evidence then your synopsis would be flawless both in its approach and logic. As you are well aware, this was from start to finish a circumstantial case. It was determined by Crown Court trial and several Appeal Court hearings to have sufficed the requirements needed in Criminal Law. I agree with you wholeheartedly that this is the major reason why this case has so many opinions and is somewhat controversial. As you know many trials are won or lost on the stand and in the witness box; it all comes down to who the jury chose to believe. If the jury have doubts as to the validity or credibility of a the defendant or witness this comes into consideration when making their final judgement.
In the history of jurisprudence one may see that trials hinged on little more that what a witness or defendant actually said. For example; Wayne Williams - the famous Atlanta Child Murderer was bought to book on little more than fibre evidence and suspicion after being stopped near the scene of a body dump. The prosecutors knew that they had a circumstantial case only. They decided to play Williams against himself. They knew that whoever carried out the killing was violent and had a temper. They therefore decided to 'rattle Williams on the stands and after some aggressive questioning by the lead prosecutor Williams snapped on the stand. He showed the jury a brief glimpse of the kind of anger that was necessary to kill. He lost the trail on the stand and was convicted and sentenced to Life Without the Possibility of Parole. Much akin to the Bamber case, it was and still is a circumstantial case. Bamber was undone on the stand by Julie Mugford, who damning testimony alongside other witness statements was enough to condemn him in the eyes of the jury. The prosecution also pointed out that his fatal mistake was the phonecall. This effectively made it a two-horse race. There now was no possibility of third-party involvement. It was either Sheila OR Jeremy. On the evidence presented it would have been absurd to suggest any other scenario.
They also took the view that 1. The gun with the silencer fitted, was too long for Sheila to have used it and shot herself - twice. 2. The fight in the kitchen played a major role in convicting Bamber as the jury considered it highly unlikely that a woman - deranged or not - could have done the kind of damage to Nevil that was found. furthermore, it was unlikely that Sheila could have fought her much larger and more powerful father.
Your synopsis Lugg is correct. There is no hard evidence, but that is not required by common law.
for any additional evidence or the intervening inference. On its own, it is the nature of circumstantial evidence for more than one explanation to still be possible. Inference from one piece of circumstantial evidence may not guarantee accuracy. Circumstantial evidence usually accumulates into a collection, so that the pieces then become corroborating evidence. Together, they may more strongly support one particular inference over another. An explanation involving circumstantial evidence becomes more valid as proof of a fact when the alternative explanations have been ruled out. In short, circumstantial evidence is used in criminal courts to establish guilt or innocence through reasoning and not through hard evidence.
This case Lugg, has always been about putting the pieces together. The points I have listed make an inference of guilt that is far greater than the sum of it's parts. When you have chalked both Sheila and Jeremy's name on a board and write every single points that points towards guilt, then begin to erase all points that exclude them from being the culprit, you are left with only one name - that of Jeremy Bamber.
Thank you for your excellent and interesting synopsis of the case Lugg. Much appreciated.

Hi Daniel/Lugg

I think you have both given a fair discussion here which is nice to see.

Can I just go back to the possibility of there being a third party.  A third party was never introduced at court and its unlikely there was one.  But, I would never be able to rule that out completely. My thoughts are just thoughts and what I am about to say is not so hideous as it appears to be.

The court  had accepted that someone gained entry into the house, then gained access out of it.  This could have been anyone with the know how on how to get on and out of a property.  The phone call according to Jeremy was a 2 second one at the most.  Lets assume then, that this call did happen, and someone with a gun to NB's back had forced NB to call Jeremy, in hope that he would turn up at the farm and be the 6th victim.  Now, could this be likely? Yes, of course it could be likely and, the reason being is that there is no evidence to support it happened or did not happen this way.  Just has there is no concrete evidence that a call was made or it was not made.  Like there was no concrete evidence that Jeremy picked up a rifle and shot his entire family.

Going back to what was discussed at trial and that it was believed that Jeremy had gone back to WHF got in through the downstairs bedroom window, got the rifle, went upstairs shot the twins, shot his mother, shot his father then shot his sister and yet no one stopped him. Well, no one could have could they? Because it simply could not have happened in that way. we are lead to believe it did.  This is of course my thoughts....and I am not saying this is the case, but what I am saying is that nothing, like a third party could never be totally ruled out.  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

Offline Patti

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #821 on: May 25, 2013, 12:57:PM »
Hi Alias
 
I love hoovering fiercely.  I have a Sebo which is hospital grade.  Its an ugly looking hoover but does a great job and helps alleviate my ocd  ;D ;D ;D

Love beer too.  Most of the girls on here are wine drinkers.  I used to drink Elephant beer but sadly Carlsberg stopped brewing it  :'( :'( :'(  Like wine too:

Beer and then wine you'll feel fine  :)

Wine and then beer you'll feel queer  :'(

CALLING PATTI  Just a thought but if you are up for 'pulling' I can thoroughly recommend beer festivals for quantity and quality  :)  Its a myth they're full of weirdy beardy types.

Oi  ;D ;D ;D ;D

I am not up for pulling!  :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :P Ha!

Offline maggie

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #822 on: May 25, 2013, 01:02:PM »
Hi Daniel/Lugg

I think you have both given a fair discussion here which is nice to see.

Can I just go back to the possibility of there being a third party.  A third party was never introduced at court and its unlikely there was one.  But, I would never be able to rule that out completely. My thoughts are just thoughts and what I am about to say is not so hideous as it appears to be.

The court  had accepted that someone gained entry into the house, then gained access out of it.  This could have been anyone with the know how on how to get on and out of a property.  The phone call according to Jeremy was a 2 second one at the most.  Lets assume then, that this call did happen, and someone with a gun to NB's back had forced NB to call Jeremy, in hope that he would turn up at the farm and be the 6th victim.  Now, could this be likely? Yes, of course it could be likely and, the reason being is that there is no evidence to support it happened or did not happen this way.  Just has there is no concrete evidence that a call was made or it was not made.  Like there was no concrete evidence that Jeremy picked up a rifle and shot his entire family.

Going back to what was discussed at trial and that it was believed that Jeremy had gone back to WHF got in through the downstairs bedroom window, got the rifle, went upstairs shot the twins, shot his mother, shot his father then shot his sister and yet no one stopped him. Well, no one could have could they? Because it simply could not have happened in that way. we are lead to believe it did.  This is of course my thoughts....and I am not saying this is the case, but what I am saying is that nothing, like a third party could never be totally ruled out.  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
Exactly Patti, nothing should be ruled out and I agree, your scenario is quite possible.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 01:06:PM by maggie »

Lugg

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #823 on: May 25, 2013, 01:11:PM »
Hi Daniel/Lugg

I think you have both given a fair discussion here which is nice to see.

Can I just go back to the possibility of there being a third party.  A third party was never introduced at court and its unlikely there was one.  But, I would never be able to rule that out completely. My thoughts are just thoughts and what I am about to say is not so hideous as it appears to be.

The court  had accepted that someone gained entry into the house, then gained access out of it.  This could have been anyone with the know how on how to get on and out of a property.  The phone call according to Jeremy was a 2 second one at the most.  Lets assume then, that this call did happen, and someone with a gun to NB's back had forced NB to call Jeremy, in hope that he would turn up at the farm and be the 6th victim.  Now, could this be likely? Yes, of course it could be likely and, the reason being is that there is no evidence to support it happened or did not happen this way.  Just has there is no concrete evidence that a call was made or it was not made.  Like there was no concrete evidence that Jeremy picked up a rifle and shot his entire family.

Going back to what was discussed at trial and that it was believed that Jeremy had gone back to WHF got in through the downstairs bedroom window, got the rifle, went upstairs shot the twins, shot his mother, shot his father then shot his sister and yet no one stopped him. Well, no one could have could they? Because it simply could not have happened in that way. we are lead to believe it did.  This is of course my thoughts....and I am not saying this is the case, but what I am saying is that nothing, like a third party could never be totally ruled out.  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
Yes Patti I have also considered a third party. But remember that there is no forensic evidence to corroberate that. Nothing to indicate that anyone entered or exited the premises. Or indeed that anyone was wandering around within the property. Not bloodied footprints or alien fingerprints found.
On the other hand having said that the short time from Ralph's phone call to the murder of all five people might fit into that suggestion. Personally I think it was either Sheila or Bamber as Daniel has already pointed out that Jeremy has fairly and squarely put himself in the frame. But in all truth we just do not know even if that was so?

Offline Daniel_day

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #824 on: May 25, 2013, 01:32:PM »
DD I am afraid again you are simply wrong in your assertions.  May I again refer you to the relevant points within the CoA doc as follows:

Recovery of the sound moderator

73.   On 10 August 1985 members of the family, who were far from convinced that Sheila Caffell had been responsible for the killings, went to White House Farm with the executor of the estate, Basil Cock. During the afternoon David Boutflour found the sound moderator together with the telescopic sights for the murder weapon at the back of the gun cupboard in the downstairs office. His father, his sister Ann Eaton, the executor and the farm secretary all witnessed the recovery.
74.   The silencer was taken to Ann Eaton's address for safekeeping and that evening members of the family examined it. They noticed that the "gun blue" of the surface had been damaged and there appeared to be red paint and blood upon it. The moderator was packaged up and the police were informed of the discovery. When collected by DS Jones on 12 August he noticed a grey hair, about an inch long attached to it. By the time the moderator had been delivered to the Forensic Science Service at Huntingdon the hair had been lost.

Scientific examination of the sound moderator

75.   Traces of blood in the form of smears were found in three places on the outside of the moderator: on the flat surface at the muzzle end, in the knurled end and in the ridge at the gun end of the device. The blood on the outside of the moderator was confirmed to be of human origin but there were insufficient quantities to permit grouping analysis.
That is exactly what I said. Where am I wrong in my assertions?