Author Topic: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"  (Read 130649 times)

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Offline killingeve

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #795 on: May 25, 2013, 08:04:AM »
If you think a man with a mission he has been planning for a year is going to be thwarted by a yapping dog you are much mistaken. He couldn't shoot it because it's not a woman's thing and the whole episode had to be blamed on Sheila. Ann Eaton says in her statement that the kitchen window was sometimes left open as a cat flap so that may explain Jeremy's entrance and egress. He may in any case have been fixing the window to open and close with a tap for months by scraping the catch with a hacksaw blade,and when the finger of suspicion turned on him after the murders he made sure that any future forensic evidence would be contaminated by entering the property himself by that means as a subterfuge on 16th August.

We don't know for sure the whereabouts of Sheila except that she was exhausted most of the time with the side-effects from Haloperidol as Colin's letter tells us when she couldn't get out of bed sometimes in the morning to take the twins to school. It's indications like these which leads me to believe that Jeremy thought he was putting a sick girl out of her misery,as well as freeing up Colin to start a new life without the children:we know that at the party Jeremy told him that the twins were "a millstone round your neck" and had quizzed Sheila on the exact days she was going to be present at the Farm. Jeremy probably scrutinized her routine on the Sunday and Monday night and realized that Sheila spent a lot of time in her own room and would not be likely to enter her sons' bedroom at night. The murders necessitated Sheila being removed from her room though which is why Jeremy led his sister by the hand like a lamb to the slaughter under the pretext that June needed her for a Bible class. I doubt that he would need to threaten her in any way as she would already be in a peaceful state and certainly looked that way in death,as any threats might be counterproductive and lead to complications.

After the murders it's quite possible Jeremy was in a state of euphoria induced by the cocktail of drugs which were necessitated in girding his loins in the first place to carry out the murders,hence the telephone calls to Julie as well as getting the Police involved as he thought he could deceive,corroborated by the "I should have been an actor" remark to Julie whilst they were alone for a moment that first morning at Goldhanger. Jeremy was sustained throughout this period by cannabis which he brought back from Amsterdam,and Julie said he was increasingly reliant on cannabis that last year and got moody without it. The tampon in the living room is interesting because according to Ann Eaton it had been cut with scissors to make it small enough to clean the silencer,and here we have Jeremy's black sense of humour asserting itself as it's Sheila's own appurtenances which Jeremy uses in an attempt to abrogate any suspicion that he was involved in the crimes.

Morning Steve_uk

If Jeremy cleaned the silencer with a tampax have you any idea how it came to have blood smears and red paint on the outside and supposedly a grey hair attached?  Surely if he cleaned the inside he would have paid even more attention to the the outside?  Also I note that when the silencer was analysed it showed no traces of fibre from the tampax which I would have expected especially when catching on the internal baffles.

Offline susan

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #796 on: May 25, 2013, 08:10:AM »
Morning N/N

ngb did an experiment with the tampax and the silencer did not work the tampax was still too big to fit inside the silencer. Would I be correct in assuming this information came from AE originally.

Offline susan

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #797 on: May 25, 2013, 08:13:AM »
Morning N/N excellent post I learn so much from posters like yourself.  You are to be congratulated for the amount of research you do.  Well done ;D

Offline killingeve

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #798 on: May 25, 2013, 08:26:AM »
Morning N/N

ngb did an experiment with the tampax and the silencer did not work the tampax was still too big to fit inside the silencer. Would I be correct in assuming this information came from AE originally.

Morning Susan

Yes I recall reading NGB's post re the above.  I just thought I would highlight how silly all this cleaning the silencer with a Tampax is  ::)  And yes it was one of many theories concocted by the relatives  ::)

Offline killingeve

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #799 on: May 25, 2013, 08:32:AM »
Morning N/N excellent post I learn so much from posters like yourself.  You are to be congratulated for the amount of research you do.  Well done ;D

Thank you Miss Susan  :)  I think it stems from my childhood interest in the Secret Seven and Famous Five  :)

Offline susan

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #800 on: May 25, 2013, 08:36:AM »
N/N just loved the famous 5 but unfortunately did not have the same effect on me as you.  We have discussed ngb's experiment with steve but he must have forgotton ;D

Lugg

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #801 on: May 25, 2013, 09:22:AM »
It has also been 'assumed' that Sheila committed the murders. There is not a shred of evidence to show that she did and yet how many posters here conclude that Sheila was responsible for the murders on here?. Bamber however...the silencer and the phone call, BOTH of which put him squarely in the frame. You can argue the toss about contamination and all the rest of it, it doesn't really make an once of difference to the outcome of the case because that theory simply cannot be proven. The fact remains that a  silencer was found in the cupboard with blood on it - dead people dont put silencers back neatly into cupboards, people who are murderers and want to cover their tracks, do.
All fair comments Daniel and of course we've been here before, many times.
Here are the facts of the crime scene as the police (it is presumed) found it. (1) The house was locked from the inside and police had to break in to get in. (2) Ralph was found inside in the kitchen apparently shot to death. (3) Three more bodies were found upstairs. Apparently the twins in their own room. Both Sheila and June on the floor on opposite sides of the bed and Sheila holding the rifle minus the silencer and gun sites. We know all this bewcause there are pictures to prove it. (4) Absoluelty no signs of a struggle where Sheila was concerned. Just two bullet holes in her neck. (4) No evidence of forced entry. In fact no signs at all that anyone had either entered or exited the premises. (5) No footprints, bloodied or otherwise either inside or outside indicating that anybody had walked around the house. I think Bridget mentioned that it was never demonstrated at trial that Jeremy Bamber DID enter in by the window. But that he could have entered the premises that way. In other words it is only assumed that he entered through the window. But there is no forensic or indeed other evidence that he did so.

Those are the only facts that we know for sure. All the rest of the evidence comes from Julie Mugford, who remember had been dumped you remember only a few days before and the so called silencer that was "allegedly" found by the relatives, which they manhandled and even took home with them together with some other stuff,

So what else to we have? The phone call from Jeremy which as you say puts him squarely in the frame. Yes I have been there before as well as I am no lover of Jeremy either. Now the interesting thing is that who is to say he is not telling the truth? His phone call certainly fits in with the facts. Another fact is that I do not believe in the words "unlikely" or "impossible" where crimes are committed. It is quite possible that it happened as police at the beginning said it did. The only thing that stands in the way is not forensic or other apparent evidence. But whether we believe it or not. It actually boils down to our own opinions and not the evidence presented in course which was in actual fact very flimsy and unstable at best. All these other so called "witnesses" have since come forward and have spoken to writers whos only purpose is to sell books and in order to sell books they must sensationalise them.

Absolutely no forensic evidence connects Jeremy to the crime. Nothing at his place at Goldhanger. No signs that he had struggled with anyone and absolutely no evidence to connect him to the crime at the crime scene. So what it boils down to is this. A silencer allegedly found by the relatives who hated him and were by their own admission trying to find something to confirm their suspicions. A Julie Mugford's testimony who Jeremy dumped a few days earlier.

So you can see surely why people have come to different conclusions about the case? And the reason many support Jeremy Bamber is not because they are in love with him because they are women or have blinkers on. But because there are these anomalies that seem to point in another direction. As I have mentioned before I have been in both camps at different times. But looking at the evidence I have come to the conclusion that they may indeed be a miscarriage of justice here?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 10:07:AM by Lugg »

Offline susan

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #802 on: May 25, 2013, 09:45:AM »
Morning Daniel

still awaiting a reply to the post I sent in answer to your post. People who have committed murders using a silencer don't normally put it back where they found it and if they have any sense at all they would make sure it was cleaned first think about it not rocket science.  They don't hand over the keys to others if they have anything to hide either.  Just think about this had the silencer not been found and Jeremy had stayed with Julie what evidence would he have been convicted on.  None.

steve_uk replied to my post on your behalf so don't worry about it.

Offline killingeve

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #803 on: May 25, 2013, 10:01:AM »
Morning Daniel

still awaiting a reply to the post I sent in answer to your post. People who have committed murders using a silencer don't normally put it back where they found it and if they have any sense at all they would make sure it was cleaned first think about it not rocket science.  They don't hand over the keys to others if they have anything to hide either.  Just think about this had the silencer not been found and Jeremy had stayed with Julie what evidence would he have been convicted on.  None.

steve_uk replied to my post on your behalf so don't worry about it.

Hi Susan

I don't think DD likes naughty nuns with latex habits as he hardly ever reponds to my posts  :'( :'( :'(  He just ignores me  :'( :'( :'(

I'm still waiting for answers from the following posts:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4287.msg177815.html#msg177815

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4287.msg177999.html#msg177999

DD If you decide to respond I'm away on hols soon but I'll get back to you on my return  :)

Offline susan

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #804 on: May 25, 2013, 10:11:AM »
Hello N/N  your posts really are too clever for him to respond to mine well say no more remember the "L" plates ;D ;D ;D  steve will respond on his behalf ;D

Offline Daniel_day

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #805 on: May 25, 2013, 10:50:AM »
Morning N/N

ngb did an experiment with the tampax and the silencer did not work the tampax was still too big to fit inside the silencer. Would I be correct in assuming this information came from AE originally.
If I may offer an opinion here, as far as I am aware Susan, everything I have read thus far on the silencer/tampax issue suggests that Bamber only wiped the outside. If you take the view that he is guilty then then never considered that the silencer would be examined microscopically (understandably so), especially as he figured that if he placed it back in the gun cupboard no-one would be any the wiser. What reason then would he have to wipe the inside?

Offline killingeve

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #806 on: May 25, 2013, 11:00:AM »
If I may offer an opinion here, as far as I am aware Susan, everything I have read thus far on the silencer/tampax issue suggests that Bamber only wiped the outside. If you take the view that he is guilty then then never considered that the silencer would be examined microscopically (understandably so), especially as he figured that if he placed it back in the gun cupboard no-one would be any the wiser. What reason then would he have to wipe the inside?

It would seem rather odd to use a tampax to clean the outside of a silencer DD.  Far more effective to use loo roll I would have thought?  Ok lets run with your theory that JB is responsible and he cleaned the outside.  Why then did the relatives find smears of blood on the outside, along with paint and a grey hair attached.  I know guys are a bit hit and miss with cleaning and paying attention to detail but surely not that bad?  :o
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 11:01:AM by Naughty Nun »

Offline susan

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #807 on: May 25, 2013, 11:01:AM »
Morning Daniel

I can only report on what I read on here and the experiment that ngb carried out.  AE it would appear stated the tampax had been cut with scissors so has to clean the inside of the silencer.  The silencer was handled by so many people before it was handed to the police it would have been so contaminated so what makes you think Jeremy Bamber wiped it.

Offline Daniel_day

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #808 on: May 25, 2013, 11:29:AM »
All fair comments Daniel and of course we've been here before, many times.
Here are the facts of the crime scene as the police (it is presumed) found it. (1) The house was locked from the inside and police had to break in to get in. (2) Ralph was found inside in the kitchen apparently shot to death. (3) Three more bodies were found upstairs. Apparently the twins in their own room. Both Sheila and June on the floor on opposite sides of the bed and Sheila holding the rifle minus the silencer and gun sites. We know all this bewcause there are pictures to prove it. (4) Absoluelty no signs of a struggle where Sheila was concerned. Just two bullet holes in her neck. (4) No evidence of forced entry. In fact no signs at all that anyone had either entered or exited the premises. (5) No footprints, bloodied or otherwise either inside or outside indicating that anybody had walked around the house. I think Bridget mentioned that it was never demonstrated at trial that Jeremy Bamber DID enter in by the window. But that he could have entered the premises that way. In other words it is only assumed that he entered through the window. But there is no forensic or indeed other evidence that he did so.

Those are the only facts that we know for sure. All the rest of the evidence comes from Julie Mugford, who remember had been dumped you remember only a few days before and the so called silencer that was "allegedly" found by the relatives, which they manhandled and even took home with them together with some other stuff,

So what else to we have? The phone call from Jeremy which as you say puts him squarely in the frame. Yes I have been there before as well as I am no lover of Jeremy either. Now the interesting thing is that who is to say he is not telling the truth? His phone call certainly fits in with the facts. Another fact is that I do not believe in the words "unlikely" or "impossible" where crimes are committed. It is quite possible that it happened as police at the beginning said it did. The only thing that stands in the way is not forensic or other apparent evidence. But whether we believe it or not. It actually boils down to our own opinions and not the evidence presented in course which was in actual fact very flimsy and unstable at best. All these other so called "witnesses" have since come forward and have spoken to writers whos only purpose is to sell books and in order to sell books they must sensationalise them.

Absolutely no forensic evidence connects Jeremy to the crime. Nothing at his place at Goldhanger. No signs that he had struggled with anyone and absolutely no evidence to connect him to the crime at the crime scene. So what it boils down to is this. A silencer allegedly found by the relatives who hated him and were by their own admission trying to find something to confirm their suspicions. A Julie Mugford's testimony who Jeremy dumped a few days earlier.

So you can see surely why people have come to different conclusions about the case? And the reason many support Jeremy Bamber is not because they are in love with him because they are women or have blinkers on. But because there are these anomalies that seem to point in another direction. As I have mentioned before I have been in both camps at different times. But looking at the evidence I have come to the conclusion that they may indeed be a miscarriage of justice here?
I agree with your synopsis Lugg, but if you are looking at it from a standpoint where you require hard physical evidence then your synopsis would be flawless both in its approach and logic. As you are well aware, this was from start to finish a circumstantial case. It was determined by Crown Court trial and several Appeal Court hearings to have sufficed the requirements needed in Criminal Law. I agree with you wholeheartedly that this is the major reason why this case has so many opinions and is somewhat controversial. As you know many trials are won or lost on the stand and in the witness box; it all comes down to who the jury chose to believe. If the jury have doubts as to the validity or credibility of a the defendant or witness this comes into consideration when making their final judgement.
In the history of jurisprudence one may see that trials hinged on little more that what a witness or defendant actually said. For example; Wayne Williams - the famous Atlanta Child Murderer was bought to book on little more than fibre evidence and suspicion after being stopped near the scene of a body dump. The prosecutors knew that they had a circumstantial case only. They decided to play Williams against himself. They knew that whoever carried out the killing was violent and had a temper. They therefore decided to 'rattle Williams on the stands and after some aggressive questioning by the lead prosecutor Williams snapped on the stand. He showed the jury a brief glimpse of the kind of anger that was necessary to kill. He lost the trail on the stand and was convicted and sentenced to Life Without the Possibility of Parole. Much akin to the Bamber case, it was and still is a circumstantial case. Bamber was undone on the stand by Julie Mugford, who damning testimony alongside other witness statements was enough to condemn him in the eyes of the jury. The prosecution also pointed out that his fatal mistake was the phonecall. This effectively made it a two-horse race. There now was no possibility of third-party involvement. It was either Sheila OR Jeremy. On the evidence presented it would have been absurd to suggest any other scenario.
They also took the view that 1. The gun with the silencer fitted, was too long for Sheila to have used it and shot herself - twice. 2. The fight in the kitchen played a major role in convicting Bamber as the jury considered it highly unlikely that a woman - deranged or not - could have done the kind of damage to Nevil that was found. furthermore, it was unlikely that Sheila could have fought her much larger and more powerful father.
Your synopsis Lugg is correct. There is no hard evidence, but that is not required by common law.
for any additional evidence or the intervening inference. On its own, it is the nature of circumstantial evidence for more than one explanation to still be possible. Inference from one piece of circumstantial evidence may not guarantee accuracy. Circumstantial evidence usually accumulates into a collection, so that the pieces then become corroborating evidence. Together, they may more strongly support one particular inference over another. An explanation involving circumstantial evidence becomes more valid as proof of a fact when the alternative explanations have been ruled out. In short, circumstantial evidence is used in criminal courts to establish guilt or innocence through reasoning and not through hard evidence.
This case Lugg, has always been about putting the pieces together. The points I have listed make an inference of guilt that is far greater than the sum of it's parts. When you have chalked both Sheila and Jeremy's name on a board and write every single points that points towards guilt, then begin to erase all points that exclude them from being the culprit, you are left with only one name - that of Jeremy Bamber.
Thank you for your excellent and interesting synopsis of the case Lugg. Much appreciated.

Offline Daniel_day

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Re: "All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"
« Reply #809 on: May 25, 2013, 11:39:AM »
It would seem rather odd to use a tampax to clean the outside of a silencer DD.  Far more effective to use loo roll I would have thought?  Ok lets run with your theory that JB is responsible and he cleaned the outside.  Why then did the relatives find smears of blood on the outside, along with paint and a grey hair attached.  I know guys are a bit hit and miss with cleaning and paying attention to detail but surely not that bad?  :o
It would seem so NN. In my opinion he may have wiped it quickly and replaced it back into the cupboard. Never in his wildest dreams did he imagine that it would be looked at forensically - why would it? The rifle was found without a silencer and the dots would never be connected - or so he thought.
David Boutflour stated that when he felt it, it was "sticky to the touch and the bluing (a film which protects the metal on the silencer) had been damaged.The gnarly end was also damaged" (these are uniform grooves made by the manufacturer on the end of the silencer)
What Boutflour was saying was that there was no blood smears but a sticky residue. This would be entirely consistent with it having been wiped down.