"All People Are Bad And Should Be Killed"

[maggie]

Yes she was, partially drugged and listless - unlike June. Or being held by Bamber under threat of death to her children. How do we know? Bamber could have told her anything, locked her in a cupboard, tied her up anything. The sequence is speculative but the fight in the kitchen, IMO isnt. This was Bamber's achilles heel. It was something he wasnt expecting. His plan came close to going awry. He ran out of bullets and Nevil made a grab for the gun, a fight ensued which the injured man lost.
Where was Sheila during all this? what does it matter? She was in a locked house with no access to a  telephone. Bamber knew this only too well.

Daniel, I don't agree that Sheila was drugged, no sedatives were found in her body at her pm.  The only meds found was a small amount of Haloperidol and traces of cannabis which proved she hadn't been taking her prescribed medication.

[maggie]

She was VERY seriously under medicated Daniel and however apathetic she may have been I think she would have fought like a tigress if she thought her children were being threatened. And what were Jeremy's motives. He was much wealthier than most of his peer group and he SEEMS to have escaped the type of vitriol that June reserved for Sheila. Nevill and June even went out for a meal , on his 21st birthday with Jeremy and his then girlfriend Suzette, who was married with three children.

Hi april
It's interesting because we hear so much about June's disaproval of the morals of one or another of Jeremy's girlfriends but the facts seem to tell a different tale at times.  As you say Neville and June socialised with Jeremy and his older married girlfriend who he was living with at the time of his 21st birthday.
They also spent Christmas day at the Goldhanger cottage with Jeremy, Julie (supposedly called a  harlot by June) and Julie's mother and stepfather.
This doesn't seem to quite equate to my mind with a son who 'f******g hated' hs parents. 
Also he seemed to take his friends to the farm to meet his parents, Brett Collins, so maligned by RB was welcomed at WHF by June and Neville ? This points far more to the fact that Jeremy is telling the truth when he maintains he loved his Mum and Dad.

[Alias]

Yes she was, partially drugged and listless - unlike June. Or being held by Bamber under threat of death to her children. How do we know? Bamber could have told her anything, locked her in a cupboard, tied her up anything. The sequence is speculative but the fight in the kitchen, IMO isnt. This was Bamber's achilles heel. It was something he wasnt expecting. His plan came close to going awry. He ran out of bullets and Nevil made a grab for the gun, a fight ensued which the injured man lost.
Where was Sheila during all this? what does it matter? She was in a locked house with no access to a  telephone. Bamber knew this only too well.

First, we don´t, so maybe we should all shut up about this case? 

Drugged? She was not drugged.

Listless, could have been, but you have to be so extremely, unrealistically listless to just sit around while your children and your parents are being violently killed, just to wait for your turn.

How could Sheila be held up by Bamber while he was killing Nicholas, Daniel, June and Neville?
 
Locked up - maybe, where? No signs of distress on her though, no traces of tears, no doors kicked or banged on to my knowledge, no bruises on her, overall clean.

Tied up? No ligature marks on Sheila whatsoever.

Thanks for answering though, I still have the same question in my head though, where was Sheila?

[killingeve]

No NN I do not subscribe to what you have just stated. You have trawled and then made fit - a poor way of arguing if I may be so bold. Tracie Andrews stabbed her boyfriend repeatedly before he even had time to defend himself (in his back numerous times) or fight back so to use this as an example is not appropriate. Jane Andrews smashed her boyfriend with a cricket bat and then stabbed him with a kitchen knife while he slept,  again NOT an appropriate example. The closest recent example is Jodi Arias very recently convicted of her ex-boyfriend's grisly murder. However, she also gave him little chance to fight back. NN, Nevil had the chance to fight back - entirely different scenarios tot he one you have used as 'examples. Furthermore, the multiple reviews in prison would seem a complete nonsense if he was a psychopath. Since this is deemed pretty much a lifelong condition, what would they exactly be expecting to change? I would very much like to see these 'reports' and on what basis they were conducted. The eminent psychologist DID examine Bamber - a man brought in by the defense at his original trial back in 1986. The defense team were very nonplussed by the result in which they awere very much hoping would show Bamber as perfectly normal. As a result of the examination they decided - rather shredly not to use his testimony.
NN the ability to push things out of your mind and psychopathy are two VERY different things. It seems you may have confused the two. We all have the ability to push certain unpleasant aspects of our lives out if our mind to 'put it to the back of our minds' is a human virtue, and allows us to get on with other more important things, temporarily. However, to put the brutal murder of 5 of your family to the back of your mind is a something else. A detective that questioned Jeremy bamber stated that he felt there was 'something missing' with him - of course you will scoff at this, just like most things the police have done that point towards Bamber;s guilt, but it does highlight Bamber's disturbing ability to remain totally unconcerned, and hgave rise to the suspicions that he was involved in the first place. Therefore it was highly significant.

Hi DD

I am not asking or expecting you to subscribe to my posts 

I didn't realise we were arguing I thought this was a forum to debate the JB case.  It would be pretty damn boring if we all agreed.

If NB had the chance to fight back why didn't he take out JB?  The poor man received 3/4 gun shot wounds in the bedroom and a futher one on the stairs.  Sadly by the time NB reached the kitchen his injuries were such that he was unable to put up any sort of fight.

To put the brutal murder of 5 members of your adoptive family to the back of your mind is a virtue if your're innocent and facing a criminal trial over their deaths.

A person's personality etc is dynamic.  Also the potential for rehabilitation exists.  If it didn't there would be no such thing as parole for violent offenders and the like, hence one of the reasons for continual assessment.

DD there's no evidence JB was or is a psychopath.  I know you would like it to be otherwise but I am afraid those that are qualified to make such a judgement are of the opinion he is not.  This is based on in-depth interviews and tests.  If you choose to believe otherwise fine 

Are you able to identify the 'eminent' psychologist and/or provide any supporting evidence of his/her findings?

I understand one of the detectives that questioned JB stated "something was missing" but I prefer to base my decisions on something a little more concrete.  It's of course up to you what you base your decisions on 

Are you able to add anything to the post I put up yesterday as follows?  I am interested in your views given that you believe JB to be a psychopath since this would mean that 3/4 members of the Bamber family were either mentally ill or personality disordered. 

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4287.msg177815.html#msg177815

[maggie]

First, we don´t, so maybe we should all shut up about this case? 

Drugged? She was not drugged.

Listless, could have been, but you have to be so extremely, unrealistically listless to just sit around while your children and your parents are being violently killed, just to wait for your turn.

How could Sheila be held up by Bamber while he was killing Nicholas, Daniel, June and Neville?
 
Locked up - maybe, where? No signs of distress on her though, no traces of tears, no doors kicked or banged on to my knowledge, no bruises on her, overall clean.

Tied up? No ligature marks on Sheila whatsoever.

Thanks for answering though, I still have the same question in my head though, where was Sheila?

Hi Alias, you're right that is a huge question. 

It would be interesting to hear a realistic suggestion from the guiltys as to where Sheila was. 
Steve maintains she was too drugged to know what was going on but we know she wasn't drugged. 
We do know she was extremely withdrawn at 10 pm and had been for a while as Pamela Boutflour's statement tells us so. 
If she wasn't drugged but was extremely withdrawn then there's a strong possibility that she was in a withdrawn and introverted psychotic state which can often happen before a psychosis becomes more extroverted and develops into what people once called a 'brain storm'. 
As you say there are no signs of Sheila having been restrained in any way.  Of course there are always endless possibilities in this case but I agree she would never have stood by and let her children die without a fight. 

[lebaleb]

Shiela's medication had been halved. She was recieving injections once a month and one was due to have one. So she was under medicated. Prior to psychotic episode a period of catatonia is common.

[lookout]

 There were three things that Doctor Ferguson wasn't aware of until after the trial,,and that was.:

1) The open pages of the bible which alluded to Good and Evil,and God and the Devil.
2) The letter in which Colin wrote to Neville telling him about being a full-time father to the twins,in other words,the sole parent.
3) Also the inscription written inside the wardrobe," I hate this place ".

Doctor Ferguson had gone on to say that had he known about these three subjects,,then he'd have built on the case by saying that,coupled with what he already knew about Sheila not liking visiting WHF,,would have said that it would have had a catastrophic effect on the present fragile state of health that Sheila was suffering.

[maggie]

Shiela's medication had been halved. She was recieving injections once a month and one was due to have one. So she was under medicated. Prior to psychotic episode a period of catatonia is common.

Thank you lebaleb, I have posted that fact so many times, usually to steve but he just breezes over it.
 A catatonic state is indeed very common before a full on extroverted psychotic episode.  I remember in my childhood people who suddenly attacked and killed a family member were said to have a brainstorm, obviously not an accepted term these days but it clearly decribes the extroverted psychotic state. 

The Doctors who gave statements must have known this, and recognised that Sheila was showing all the signs of pending disaster, I can only assume that they were covering their own backs by not admitting it.

[susan]

Alias/Maggie this is something that had been bugging me since I joined the forum if Jeremy had carried out the murders where was Sheila when this was going on any Mother who was of sound body and mind would have put up one heck of a struggle to protect her children.  We know she was not drugged as per the pm results so where was she when the shootings were being carried no explanation has been given to us for this strange state of affairs.  Wonder if this was mentioned at the Trial by the Defence.

[Jane]

Shiela's medication had been halved. She was recieving injections once a month and one was due to have one. So she was under medicated. Prior to psychotic episode a period of catatonia is common.

Thanks for your input lebaleb. It's good to have to have affirmation from someone else who knows what they're talking about. Several of us have been pushing this point but some, it seems, have deaf ears.

[susan]

Hello april  as we say in Yorkshire they have "cloth ears" sounds so much better than deaf ears ;DWe are quite a polite lot up there

[Jane]

There were three things that Doctor Ferguson wasn't aware of until after the trial,,and that was.:

1) The open pages of the bible which alluded to Good and Evil,and God and the Devil.
2) The letter in which Colin wrote to Neville telling him about being a full-time father to the twins,in other words,the sole parent.
3) Also the inscription written inside the wardrobe," I hate this place ".

Doctor Ferguson had gone on to say that had he known about these three subjects,,then he'd have built on the case by saying that,coupled with what he already knew about Sheila not liking visiting WHF,,would have said that it would have had a catastrophic effect on the present fragile state of health that Sheila was suffering.

Lookout, there was a hell of a lot Dr Ferguson wasn't aware of. He wrote his report based on the last time her saw her which was 18 WEEKS prior to her death.

[lookout]

There were three things that Doctor Ferguson wasn't aware of until after the trial,,and that was.:

1) The open pages of the bible which alluded to Good and Evil,and God and the Devil.
2) The letter in which Colin wrote to Neville telling him about being a full-time father to the twins,in other words,the sole parent.
3) Also the inscription written inside the wardrobe," I hate this place ".

Doctor Ferguson had gone on to say that had he known about these three subjects,,then he'd have built on the case by saying that,coupled with what he already knew about Sheila not liking visiting WHF,,would have said that it would have had a catastrophic effect on the present fragile state of health that Sheila was suffering.

Chances are that Sheila could well have seen the letter from Colin explaining taking over the childrens' welfare,,which was addressed to Neville,only,,so whether June saw it too remains to be seen.
The point being,,that Sheila would then have lost all faith in her father who would undoubtedly have been on Colins' side,,and so this would possibly have been the cause of the tragedy.
Have we seen this letter from Colin to Neville.? If not,it would be interesting to read the content to match it with Sheilas' behaviour of that night. 

[Caroline R]

Thanks for your input lebaleb. It's good to have to have affirmation from someone else who knows what they're talking about. Several of us have been pushing this point but some, it seems, have deaf ears.

It's in the statements April, they are on the site to read if they so choose. When people only deal in scenarios, they can never be right because we simply don't know.

[maggie]

Alias/Maggie this is something that had been bugging me since I joined the forum if Jeremy had carried out the murders where was Sheila when this was going on any Mother who was of sound body and mind would have put up one heck of a struggle to protect her children.  We know she was not drugged as per the pm results so where was she when the shootings were being carried no explanation has been given to us for this strange state of affairs.  Wonder if this was mentioned at the Trial by the Defence.

It's a big question isn't it Susie and interesting that no one on the JB guilty side has a feasible suggestion.