Author Topic: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?  (Read 6649 times)

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Offline Martin

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http://crimeheartsandcoronets.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/jeremy-bamber-guilty-as-charged.html

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A chair was on its side to the left of an Aga oven, and Nevill’s corpse was sat awkwardly on one edge of the backrest. He was slumped forward with arms at his side and his head fully inside a silver-topped bucket – in fact a coal scuttle. Blood had run thickly down the sides of this hod. The body was facing the window Collins had looked through, and all that was visible of Nevill’s head was a dishevelled shock of grey hair. This was why Collins had mistaken farmer Bamber for an old woman.

Here’s a problem which is overlooked by the guilters. Assuming it is acknowledged by everybody that Nevill’s body was already in a state of advanced rigor mortis when it was put in the toppled position with his head in the coal bucket, that would imply that if Jeremy were the killer he must have carried out the murders several hours before he left the scene, unless you were to maintain that Nevill’s body went into such a condition immediately after death, in stark contrast with Sheila’s body which still showed no signs of rigor seven hours or so later than the prosecution’s alleged time of death.

If Jeremy had committed the murders, it must have been long enough before 03:00am for Nevill’s body to have become rigid. That would suggest a time of death no later than midnight.

If anyone says “Well maybe it wasn’t completely rigid by then…” that really doesn’t help, insofar as Bamber (or his paid accomplice) is supposed to have left the scene immediately after the job was done, not to have hung around for a few hours.

If you say the body might have been put into that position while still soft, then why on earth did it not just flop down. A simple experiment could prove the point. If a person of similar age and build  to Nevill were asked to position himself thus, it would be immediately apparent if he could remain in that position when he just relaxed and let himself go limp. But why bother dropping an apple to prove the law of gravity or go doing yourself an injury for that matter.

But if Nevill’s body is already in rigor mortis before 03:00am, why is Sheila’s body still obviously not in that condition at 10:00am which would be ten hours or more after she was killed if Jeremy were responsible. Why was Sheila’s body not just as rigid as Nevill’s instead of still being flexible even ten hours after she died.

These considerations make it hard to believe in the truthfulness of PC Collins’s statement. Collins had originally said that he had seen through the window a dead female in the kitchen, but later said that he had mistaken Nevill’s body in the toppled position with his hair hanging down for a woman’s body. Consider this in relation to the known truth that the body must have already been in rigor when put into that position. Nobody thinks that Jeremy had remained at the scene of the murders for several hours, so whoever it was who had put Nevill’s body into that position, it could not have been Jeremy.

If Sheila were responsible for the act, then Bamber must be innocent. On the other hand, if as Mike Tesko maintains, the police had performed that action after they forced their way into the kitchen, that clearly implies that PC Collins is lying in his explanation of why he mistook Nevill’s body for that of a female. The point is that Nevill’s body could not have been in that position when PC Collins saw a body through the window if it had been the police who had later put it like that.

Interpretation

The police are covering up the fact that they did, in  truth, find two bodies in the kitchen. The logs clearly record this with several mutually corroborative statements, including a reference to a female, but not to a male body, in the first sighting through the window by PC Collins. In their effort to explain the log entries as mistakes, they thought of saying that Nevill’s body being in the tipped forward position with his head in the coal bucket had caused PC Collins to mistake it for a female.

I would like to see that statement of PC Collins because it would appear to rule out Jeremy Bamber as a suspect. The basic point is simply that if police deny putting Nevill’s body in the position with his head in the coal bucket they are stating that whoever did it was the killer. But we know that Jeremy could not have been responsible for that, so the killer must have been someone else.

Here’s a strange paradox.

If the police are telling the truth about how they found Nevill‘s body, Jeremy can’t be guilty (because it can’t, for the reasons given, have been him who thus positioned Nevill’s body) An alternative is that Sheila did the latter which would imply that she was the killer.

If Jeremy is guilty the police must be lying (meaning that, although Jeremy was the killer, it was  the police who positioned Nevill’s body as seen in photographs but who, for some reason, deny doing so).

So either Jeremy is innocent or the police are lying and possibly both are true.


« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 01:29:AM by Martin »

Offline Patti

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Re: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2013, 11:37:PM »
Hi Martin :)

I will go through what I believe to be true.

I have not seen Collins's statement so I can't comment on something I have not seen. However, I can believe that Collins did mistake Nevill for a female.  On saying that, when they relayed to control they distictively said it was one female and one male in the kitchen. If that was a mistake then why did they not raido back to control and say...we now have confirmation that only on male was found in the kitchen...but what strikes me the most is that minutes later they confirm that there were 3 dead bodies upstairs. Well, the mathematics does not ring true.

I understand that given the age of Nevill and the room temperature rigour mortis would be quicker to set in than that of a younger person. A couple of hours if not less.  Cadaveric spasm can sometimes be mistaken for rigour mortis; this is a rare occurrence that happens when someone has died in shock/fear.  The body goes straight into rigor mortis.

It is unacceptable that Nevill died in such a position, his body would have fell, like you say, the weight of gravity; unless he had a cadaveric spasm or he was positioned there.  I'm not a medical person, but I would like to hear what a professional would say regarding this.:-\ :-\
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 11:43:PM by Patti »

Lugg

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Re: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2013, 11:44:PM »
http://crimeheartsandcoronets.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/jeremy-bamber-guilty-as-charged.html

Here’s a problem which is overlooked by the guilters. Assuming it is acknowledged by everybody that Nevill’s body was already in a state of advanced rigor mortis when it was put in the toppled position with his head in the coal bucket, that would imply that if Jeremy were the killer he must have carried out the murders several hours before he left the scene, unless you were to maintain that Nevill’s body went into such a condition immediately after death, in stark contrast with Sheila’s body which still showed no signs of rigor seven hours or so later than the prosecution’s alleged time of death.

If Jeremy had committed the murders, it must have been long enough before 03:00am for Nevill’s body to have become rigid. That would suggest a time of death no later than midnight.

If anyone says “Well maybe it wasn’t completely rigid by then…” that really doesn’t help, insofar as Bamber (or his paid accomplice) is supposed to have left the scene immediately after the job was done, not to have hung around for a few hours.

If you say the body might have been put into that position while still soft, then why on earth did it not just flop down. A simple experiment could prove the point. If a person of similar age and build  to Nevill were asked to position himself thus, it would be immediately apparent if he could remain in that position when he just relaxed and let himself go limp. But why bother dropping an apple to prove the law of gravity or go doing yourself an injury for that matter.

But if Nevill’s body is already in rigor mortis before 03:00am, why is Sheila’s body still obviously not in that condition at 10:00am which would be ten hours or more after she was killed if Jeremy were responsible. Why was Sheila’s body not just as rigid as Nevill’s instead of still being flexible even ten hours after she died.

These considerations make it hard to believe in the truthfulness of PC Collins’s statement. Collins had originally said that he had seen through the window a dead female in the kitchen, but later said that he had mistaken Nevill’s body in the toppled position with his hair hanging down for a woman’s body. Consider this in relation to the known truth that the body must have already been in rigor when put into that position. Nobody thinks that Jeremy had remained at the scene of the murders for several hours, so whoever it was who had put Nevill’s body into that position, it could not have been Jeremy.

If Sheila were responsible for the act, then Bamber must be innocent. On the other hand, if as Mike Tesko maintains, the police had performed that action after they forced their way into the kitchen, that clearly implies that PC Collins is lying in his explanation of why he mistook Nevill’s body for that of a female. The point is that Nevill’s body could not have been in that position when PC Collins saw a body through the window if it had been the police who had later put it like that.

Interpretation

The police are covering up the fact that they did, in  truth, find two bodies in the kitchen. The logs clearly record this with several mutually corroborative statements, including a reference to a female, but not to a male body, in the first sighting through the window by PC Collins. In their effort to explain the log entries as mistakes, they thought of saying that Nevill’s body being in the tipped forward position with his head in the coal bucket had caused PC Collins to mistake it for a female.

I would like to see that statement of PC Collins because it would appear to rule out Jeremy Bamber as a suspect. The basic point is simply that if police deny putting Nevill’s body in the position with his head in the coal bucket they are stating that whoever did it was the killer. But we know that Jeremy could not have been responsible for that, so the killer must have been someone else.

Here’s a strange paradox.

If the police are telling the truth about how they found Nevill‘s body, Jeremy can’t be guilty (because it can’t, for the reasons given, have been him who thus positioned Nevill’s body) An alternative is that Sheila did the latter which would imply that she was the killer.

If Jeremy is guilty the police must be lying (meaning that, although Jeremy was the killer, it was  the police who positioned Nevill’s body as seen in photographs but who, for some reason, deny doing so).

So either Jeremy is innocent or the police are lying and possibly both.
Some very good observations here.

Offline Martin

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Re: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2013, 11:53:PM »
Hi Martin :)

I will go through what I believe to be true.

I have not seen Collins's statement so I can't comment on something I have not seen. However, I can believe that Collins did mistake Nevill for a female.  On saying that, when they relayed to control they distictively said it was one female and one male in the kitchen. If that was a mistake then why did they not raido back to control and say...we now have confirmation that only on male was found in the kitchen...but what strikes me the most is that minutes later they confirm that there were 3 dead bodies upstairs. Well, the mathematics does not ring true.

I understand that given the age of Nevill and the room temperature rigour mortis would be quicker to set in than that of a younger person. A couple of hours if not less.  Cadaveric spasm can sometimes be mistaken for rigour mortis; this is a rare occurrence that happens when someone has died in shock/fear.  The body goes straight into rigor mortis.

It is unacceptable that Nevill died in such a position, his body would have fell, like you say, the weight of gravity; unless he had a cadaveric spasm or he was positioned there.  I'm not a medical person, but I would like to hear what a professional would say regarding this.:-\ :-\


Patti

What I would particularly be interested in knowing is whether or not it is definitely stated by the police that Nevill’s body was first seen through the window with his head in the coal bucket. The notion that the killer could have put it in that position only a few minutes after the murders owing to cadaveric spasm is just too far fetched. I’ve noticed that most pro guilt people accept that Nevill’s body was already in rigor mortis when put into that position without seeming to realise what that implies.


Offline tyler

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Re: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2013, 12:07:AM »
Martin,you have raised some excellent points that haven't been considered before! I don't know if it helps,but another raid team member says in his statement that Neville was found "leaning" against the wall near the aga. He certainly doesn't appear to be in the crime scene photographs does he?

Offline Patti

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Re: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2013, 12:16:AM »

Patti

What I would particularly be interested in knowing is whether or not it is definitely stated by the police that Nevill’s body was first seen through the window with his head in the coal bucket. The notion that the killer could have put it in that position only a few minutes after the murders owing to cadaveric spasm is just too far fetched. I’ve noticed that most pro guilt people accept that Nevill’s body was already in rigor mortis when put into that position without seeming to realise what that implies.

Hi Martin. All I have been told is that Collins sees someone in the kitchen and he relays that back as being female.  It is not beyond possibility that what he saw was in fact nevill.  But, what we need to see is Collins statement; without that we are stuck.

Matin it is difficult to understand as to how Nevill was in such a position. He obviously died in that area of the kitchen...the blood tells us that.  He could have been so limp and comatised at the time, that the killer ridiculed him by putting him into that position.  But, if he died having a cadaveric spasm his poor body would have stiffened immediately in the place he was killed. I think the chair was kicked from underneath him and because he was so stiff his body stayed in its original position...

I think we need a professional on this because his body position is not right, is it?  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\   

Offline Patti

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Re: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2013, 12:21:AM »
I can't see that the door behind Nevill would overturn the chair....it would shove it??????????

Offline Patti

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Re: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2013, 12:22:AM »
Martin,you have raised some excellent points that haven't been considered before! I don't know if it helps,but another raid team member says in his statement that Neville was found "leaning" against the wall near the aga. He certainly doesn't appear to be in the crime scene photographs does he?

Hi Tyler :)

Can you tell us what raid team member that was?  ;)

Caroline R

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Re: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2013, 12:25:AM »

Patti

What I would particularly be interested in knowing is whether or not it is definitely stated by the police that Nevill’s body was first seen through the window with his head in the coal bucket. The notion that the killer could have put it in that position only a few minutes after the murders owing to cadaveric spasm is just too far fetched. I’ve noticed that most pro guilt people accept that Nevill’s body was already in rigor mortis when put into that position without seeming to realise what that implies.

As the chair is toppled and Neville's body is in a crouch position, might he not have been sitting in the chair which could have been toppled by the raid team after which he finally ended up in the unfortunate position he was found in. It would explain how he was in full rigor when he toppled over and might also explain why his PJ bottoms were down? However, it doesn't explain why Sheila seems to have died much later.

Offline nugnug

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Re: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2013, 12:27:AM »
well we know jeremy couldent have comitted the murders at 3 am becouse at 3 am he was somewhere else and the phone records prove that.

the lack of rigor mortis in shiela would suggest she hadent been dead that long

Offline Patti

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Re: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2013, 12:32:AM »
As the chair is toppled and Neville's body is in a crouch position, might he not have been sitting in the chair which could have been toppled by the raid team after which he finally ended up in the unfortunate position he was found in. It would explain how he was in full rigor when he toppled over and might also explain why his PJ bottoms were down? However, it doesn't explain why Sheila seems to have died much later.

But how does it get toppled.....when a door opens things get shoved...Arh! unless the chair was already toppled and Nevill fell back on it....But it is clear from the photo's that he was in a sitting position...?????? But yet it appears his arms are dangling...which does not make sense....

We need to keep with this...... ;) ;D

Offline nugnug

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Re: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2013, 12:35:AM »
im somewhat confused as to how pc collins could of mistaken him for a woman.

Offline Martin

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Re: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2013, 12:37:AM »
Martin,you have raised some excellent points that haven't been considered before! I don't know if it helps,but another raid team member says in his statement that Neville was found "leaning" against the wall near the aga. He certainly doesn't appear to be in the crime scene photographs does he?

Tyler

It looks as if it was the police who put Nevill’s body in that position to catch the flow of blood which occurred when they disturbed it when forcing the door open-Mike Tesko’s interpretation. There doesn’t seem to be any genuine reason for them to deny doing it. It would have been a reasonable thing to do in such a circumstance.

The other raid team member could be describing the position of Nevill’s body before they repositioned it. The thing is, there’s nothing sinister about such an action, it only when you ask the question, why would they need to deny doing it, that it becomes sinister.



Online Steve_uk

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Re: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2013, 12:41:AM »
http://crimeheartsandcoronets.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/jeremy-bamber-guilty-as-charged.html

Here’s a problem which is overlooked by the guilters. Assuming it is acknowledged by everybody that Nevill’s body was already in a state of advanced rigor mortis when it was put in the toppled position with his head in the coal bucket, that would imply that if Jeremy were the killer he must have carried out the murders several hours before he left the scene, unless you were to maintain that Nevill’s body went into such a condition immediately after death, in stark contrast with Sheila’s body which still showed no signs of rigor seven hours or so later than the prosecution’s alleged time of death.

If Jeremy had committed the murders, it must have been long enough before 03:00am for Nevill’s body to have become rigid. That would suggest a time of death no later than midnight.

If anyone says “Well maybe it wasn’t completely rigid by then…” that really doesn’t help, insofar as Bamber (or his paid accomplice) is supposed to have left the scene immediately after the job was done, not to have hung around for a few hours.

If you say the body might have been put into that position while still soft, then why on earth did it not just flop down. A simple experiment could prove the point. If a person of similar age and build  to Nevill were asked to position himself thus, it would be immediately apparent if he could remain in that position when he just relaxed and let himself go limp. But why bother dropping an apple to prove the law of gravity or go doing yourself an injury for that matter.

But if Nevill’s body is already in rigor mortis before 03:00am, why is Sheila’s body still obviously not in that condition at 10:00am which would be ten hours or more after she was killed if Jeremy were responsible. Why was Sheila’s body not just as rigid as Nevill’s instead of still being flexible even ten hours after she died.

These considerations make it hard to believe in the truthfulness of PC Collins’s statement. Collins had originally said that he had seen through the window a dead female in the kitchen, but later said that he had mistaken Nevill’s body in the toppled position with his hair hanging down for a woman’s body. Consider this in relation to the known truth that the body must have already been in rigor when put into that position. Nobody thinks that Jeremy had remained at the scene of the murders for several hours, so whoever it was who had put Nevill’s body into that position, it could not have been Jeremy.

If Sheila were responsible for the act, then Bamber must be innocent. On the other hand, if as Mike Tesko maintains, the police had performed that action after they forced their way into the kitchen, that clearly implies that PC Collins is lying in his explanation of why he mistook Nevill’s body for that of a female. The point is that Nevill’s body could not have been in that position when PC Collins saw a body through the window if it had been the police who had later put it like that.

Interpretation

The police are covering up the fact that they did, in  truth, find two bodies in the kitchen. The logs clearly record this with several mutually corroborative statements, including a reference to a female, but not to a male body, in the first sighting through the window by PC Collins. In their effort to explain the log entries as mistakes, they thought of saying that Nevill’s body being in the tipped forward position with his head in the coal bucket had caused PC Collins to mistake it for a female.

I would like to see that statement of PC Collins because it would appear to rule out Jeremy Bamber as a suspect. The basic point is simply that if police deny putting Nevill’s body in the position with his head in the coal bucket they are stating that whoever did it was the killer. But we know that Jeremy could not have been responsible for that, so the killer must have been someone else.

Here’s a strange paradox.

If the police are telling the truth about how they found Nevill‘s body, Jeremy can’t be guilty (because it can’t, for the reasons given, have been him who thus positioned Nevill’s body) An alternative is that Sheila did the latter which would imply that she was the killer.

If Jeremy is guilty the police must be lying (meaning that, although Jeremy was the killer, it was  the police who positioned Nevill’s body as seen in photographs but who, for some reason, deny doing so).

So either Jeremy is innocent or the police are lying and possibly both.


This doesn't follow,because the Raid Team stormed the house at 7:34am or 7:54am depending on which source you consult,and rigor mortis can take six hours to start,so Jeremy could have committed the murders around 3:00am,cycled home to Goldhanger and called Police and then Julie around 3:15am. It's also possible that rigor had not set into Sheila's beautiful hands because it starts first in the eyelids,neck and jaw and can take another four to six hours before spreading to other bodyparts and organs.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 12:48:AM by Steve_uk »

Offline Patti

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Re: Does the evidence of PC Collins prove Bamber is innocent?
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2013, 12:45:AM »
Tyler

It looks as if it was the police who put Nevill’s body in that position to catch the flow of blood which occurred when they disturbed it when forcing the door open-Mike Tesko’s interpretation. There doesn’t seem to be any genuine reason for them to deny doing it. It would have been a reasonable thing to do in such a circumstance.

The other raid team member could be describing the position of Nevill’s body before they repositioned it. The thing is, there’s nothing sinister about such an action, it only when you ask the question, why would they need to deny doing it, that it becomes sinister.

I thought dead people don't bleed......At what time do they stop bleeding???????????