Key mistakes / malfeasance in public office

[Roch]

What do members feel are the key errors made by EP during the span of this case? 

Please explain whether you feel the error can be justified or whether you feel the error is suspicious.

Interested in views from all sides.

[Caroline R]

There are obviously many, many errors but to kick things off  I'd start with ....

EP and raid team trampled all over the scene and then removed vital evidence and destroyed it before proper forensic analysis could be carried out. Did they do this because they were sure it was four murders and a suicide or because something else happened that they wanted to cover up? I honestly don't know but it was stupid and completely unprofessional!! What does make it suspicious is that they later destroyed further evidence in the 1990's claiming it was a mistake - you have to wonder!!

[Caroline R]

So many (so called) logged communication errors in the initial stages. The time of Jeremy Bambers phone call, the raid teams dialogue with reports of being in communication with someone inside then seeing a female body in the kitchen and on entry finding two bodies followed by three more upstairs.

If these were indeed errors, why were the logs never amended?

No time of death was ever officially estimated (as far as we know) for any of the victims.

All weapons and related materials should have been removed by EP on the day of the tragedy .....

[susan]

Hi Caroline  at the onset EP treated the murders at WHF as 4 murders and one suicide.  The young police officers would be totally out of their depth and did not follow procedure of securing the crime scene as they should have done.  Evidence was not gathered it was destroyed, trampled over and the whole scene would be carnage.  For some reason unknown to me they then decided to treat the incident as 5 murders the evidence for this change of heart was flimsy to say the least. They did and still do act as if they have something to hide they destroyed further evidence in the 1990's after being told not to do so but they did it anyway.  Is this the actions of total incompetence or something more sinister.I suspect some retired officers would beable to enlighten us as to what actually happened but this will never happen as they are all looking after No.1 

[Lugg]

Personally I think they waited too long before they sent the raid team in.

[maggie]

Personally I think they waited too long before they sent the raid team in.

I agree with you Lugg, I don't understand why they waited so long. Firearms weren't despatched lightly in 1985 and yet there seemed little urgency to enter the house.

[susan]

Hi Maggie/Lugg  I suspect this was a whole new ball game to EP and they were apprehensive of entering the house as they suspected somebody was still alive in there and they feared for their own lives.  In this day and age gun crime is rife and police are better trained to deal with it but back then I fear they were not trained.  Did they not carry out a training exercise at the scene.

[maggie]

No time of death was ever officially estimated (as far as we know) for any of the victims......

Hi Caroline, it"s hard to believe no estimated times of death were ever recorded or if they were, they've never seen the light of day.  While times of death are up to a point an educated guess they may have been able to answer extremely important questions. They  may very well have secured an alibi for Jeremy Bamber as there is still so much dispute as to Sheila Caffell's time of death ie she appears in the photos to have died much later than the other victims?

[maggie]

Hi Maggie/Lugg  I suspect this was a whole new ball game to EP and they were apprehensive of entering the house as they suspected somebody was still alive in there and they feared for their own lives.  In this day and age gun crime is rife and police are better trained to deal with it but back then I fear they were not trained.  Did they not carry out a training exercise at the scene.

I agree Susie they weren't experienced in real life sieges but must have had training in these areas, surely gun handlers were highly trained? Again that question, cover up of an alibi or police bungling ??

[susan]

Maggie I agree gun handlers would have had training but when it comes to putting their training into a real life scene it would be a totally different kettle of fish.  No substitute for experience and I would not think they would have had much in that kind of situation. But who am I to say this is just my general feeling about the incident.

[Alias]

All of the above (appalling!!!) + taking into evidence the silencer, which was NOT discovered by EP  when they searched the house, but found, removed from house and handled  by a relative who had much to gain by a conviction of Jeremy. Even a police officer (Bews) has later admitted that this was problematic. This was the main factor in the conviction of Jeremy to a life sentence!

[lookout]

I would think that the EP at that particular time were under duress to solve this crime after the debacle of failing to " get their man " in the previous Diane Jones murder,,as threats to the force were made then regarding job losses,etc for their gross incompetency.
So in order to secure a quick conviction,,the force acted in an over-zealous manner with everything they possibly could,,without thinking. Bull in a china shop,springs to mind.

[susan]

Hello lookout it was evident from the onset that EP had thought they had solved the crime 4 murders one suicide end of.  What evidence came to light and from whom to make them change their mind.  Would I be correct in thinking Taff Jones was taken off the case.  If so. why.

[lookout]

Hello lookout it was evident from the onset that EP had thought they had solved the crime 4 murders one suicide end of.  What evidence came to light and from whom to make them change their mind.  Would I be correct in thinking Taff Jones was taken off the case.  If so. why.

Hello,Susan..I think it was an act of bloody-mindedness on Stan Jones's part to have taken over,,what appeared to him to be a " too easy and clearcut " end to the case,,whereas,SJ wanted to act as the big" I am",,and stretch the procedure to make it appear that they were doing their job in light of previous unsolved or bungled cases.
After all,," Taff " had seen it all before considering the years he had under his belt,,so the scenario he faced came as no surprise.
The EP must think we're all stupid not to see through what they were doing.

[Patti]

Hi Roch

I agree with most of what has been said.  I think the major mistake was not to ensure that the crime scene was cordoned off correctly and the other major failure is lack of forensic evidence collected by the scenes of crime officers.  Those two alone had a detrimental effect on Jeremy ever finding any forensic evidence to help him clear his name. 

I also agree with what Caroline said about the destruction of evidence in 1996 during a time when DNA was about to make a remarkable breakthrough. It was such an appalling act of gross misconduct in every sense, especially as Jeremy Bamber was still claiming and continuing to fight for his innocence.  The evidence that was destroyed could have given Jeremy's defence team a major breakthrough and its no use saying that it would not have, because it might well have; and, now we will never know.  Another major factor in all of this is that those who gave the orders to destroy the evidence also knew about the imminent scientific breakthrough in modern science and that is DNA.  Although DNA was around it was not possible to do tests like it is now and, therefore to me it is gross misconduct. 

I'd like to carry on with Stan Jones and his part in the investigation, but will leave that for now. 

The Sound Moderator was clearly the key factor in Jeremy's conviction based on the old fashioned ABO testing.  It is now clear with LCN DNA testing that the court of appeal agree that the LCN DNA taken from the Sound Moderator MAY have belonged to Sheila.  Therefore, this means that no one can be 100% sure that the LCN DNA did in effect belong to her. In my opinion the whole case fails based on this evidence alone, should it be presented in a court of today.   However, there is still the major factor of June's DNA being in the sound moderator, but I fear that this in now inconclusive and again a jury of today might not make a conviction based on this factor alone.   The sound moderator was an appalling piece of evidence from the onset.  It was handled by many people including the relatives and was placed in the kitchen which was a crime scene.  It was also placed in the boot of a car and could have also been contaminated and mishandled.

 :D :D :D :D