Author Topic: 'Nothing really substantively new....'  (Read 17601 times)

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Offline Bridget

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2013, 03:35:PM »
Your interpretation = "nonsensical twaddle"

My interpretation = Real life!

"let he who is without sin, cast the first stone"

Bridget I could attempt to take you seriously if you were able to tell me the truth in relation to the forfeiture notice.. I know I'm going slightly off topic by raising this issue again but so far you have avoided answering the question.

I think you were unbelievably foolish to have sent the forfeiture notice without taking proper sound legal advice - you could have saved yourself a small fortune and saved face too.

Are you still in denial and is that why you try to divert attention from yourself by hiding behind the company name? How many 'victims' do you have on your books?

You appear to re-hash the same arguments, not really going anywhere with it, round and round, the same theme - and still you refuse to answer a simple question... Did you screw up? Did you misinterpret the law?

Have you any idea how boring you are? I'll say it again in very small words. I have never in my life sent anyone a forfeiture notice.
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Offline Bridget

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2013, 03:58:PM »
I'll say it again in the language you think you understand?!

Did you not instigate the process of sending a section 146 with view to issuing a forfeiture notice?

Thank you for your opinion of me but another bit of advice to you - don't judge a book by it's cover.

Whilst your integrity remains in question, I will always find if difficult to take you seriously.

Well, at the risk of boring everyone else with a lecture on leasehold property management, once a landlord has obtained a judgement from a court or LVT that a sum of money is owing in respect of service charges or other debt it has two choices. It can either transfer the claim to court (if it's not already there) for enforcement by bailiffs, attachment of earnings, charging orders etc, or (if the debt meets required criteria) the landlord can issue s146 notices of forfeiture to both the debtor and their mortgagee. Most landlords prefer the latter route because it almost invariably results in payment of the debt in full and immediately by the mortgagee in order to protect their security. I have, on many occasions, after having been instructed to do so by my landlord clients, instructed solicitors to issue s146 notices on behalf of those clients on the basis of the judgment already obtained. In every case the judgment debt has been paid in full by the mortgagee.

Thank you for your interest.
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Offline Bridget

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2013, 04:10:PM »
So are you finally admitting that you have indeed been telling porky pies and you have previously been instrumental in instigating s146 notices with view to forfeiture of properties?

You aren't a lawyer Bridget and therefore your use of language can be very misleading to your unsuspecting clients.

I know I bore Bridget but I think of people like Giovanni Di Stefano when I think of people like you.

I have no idea what you're on about. You asked me whether I regretted having personally sent out notices without having first sought legal advice. I told you I've never sent any.
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Offline Bridget

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2013, 04:12:PM »
Oh my god, how could I refuse an invitation like that...
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Offline lookout

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2013, 06:42:PM »
There could be something new tomorrow according to Jeremys' blogs,,so we'll await more case news.

Offline nugnug

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2013, 06:47:PM »
i think there will be.

Offline lookout

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2013, 07:07:PM »
i think there will be.


Jeremy appears to be quite uplifted by it,nugs. Let's face it,,he hasn't been campaigning all these years for nothing. I notice all his past friends are now coming forward with their testimonies.! The same people were scared to say that he hadn't committed the murders in case they,themselves lost friends. It just shows you what hypocrites folk are. I'd be telling them to get lost if that was me.

Offline nugnug

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2013, 07:12:PM »
well there the officail campaign i dont think they would want to make fools of themselves.

Offline lookout

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2013, 07:17:PM »
well there the officail campaign i dont think they would want to make fools of themselves.


That's right,nugs.

Offline Patti

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2013, 07:23:PM »

That's right,nugs.

I wonder if S,Makay is about to receive the outcome from the European courts on his whole life tariff....surely this is imminent.  :) :) :) :)

Offline nugnug

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2013, 07:30:PM »
i hope its got more to do with the case than that but we will see.

Offline Patti

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2013, 07:35:PM »
i hope its got more to do with the case than that but we will see.

Thanks Nugs.  ;) :D :D :D

Offline Bridget

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2013, 07:50:PM »
Sorry ngb, I have more questions if you could assist...

Paragraph 704 of the Code of Conduct:

Drafting documents

704. A barrister must not devise facts which will assist in advancing the lay client's case and must not draft any statement of case, witness statement, affidavit, notice of appeal or other document containing:

(a) any statement of fact or contention which is not supported by the lay client or by his instructions;

(b) any contention which he does not consider to be properly arguable;

(c) any allegation of fraud unless he has clear instructions to make such allegation and has before him reasonably credible material which as it stands establishes a prima facie case of fraud;

(d) in the case of a witness statement or affidavit any statement of fact other than the evidence which in substance according to his instructions the barrister reasonably believes the witness would give if the evidence contained in the witness statement or affidavit were being given in oral examination;

 provided that nothing in this paragraph shall prevent a barrister drafting a document containing specific factual statements or contentions included by the barrister subject to confirmation of their accuracy by the lay client or witness.


I'm struggling to find definitions of 'fraud' and 'reasonable credible material' within the context of the code. I did find this, which is an extract from the HoL judgment in Medcalf v Weatherill:

    22. Paragraph 606(c) lays down an important and salutary principle. The parties to contested actions are often at daggers drawn, and the litigious process serves to exacerbate the hostility between them. Such clients are only too ready to make allegations of the most damaging kind against each other. While counsel should never lend his name to such allegations unless instructed to do so, the receipt of instructions is not of itself enough. Counsel is bound to exercise an objective professional judgment whether it is in all the circumstances proper to lend his name to the allegation. As the rule recognises, counsel could not properly judge it proper to make such an allegation unless he had material before him which he judged to be reasonably credible and which appeared to justify the allegation. At the hearing stage, counsel cannot properly make or persist in an allegation which is unsupported by admissible evidence, since if there is not admissible evidence to support the allegation the court cannot be invited to find that it has been proved, and if the court cannot be invited to find that the allegation has been proved the allegation should not be made or should be withdrawn. I would however agree with Wilson J that at the preparatory stage the requirement is not that counsel should necessarily have before him evidence in admissible form but that he should have material of such a character as to lead responsible counsel to conclude that serious allegations could properly be based upon it. I could not think, for example, that it would be professionally improper for counsel to plead allegations, however serious, based on the documented conclusions of a DTI inspector or a public inquiry, even though counsel had no access to the documents referred to and the findings in question were inadmissible hearsay. On this point I would accept the judgment of Wilson J.

I believe 606 is now 704.

The Medcalf case is obviously civil rather than criminal, so are there different rules in the criminal context, or failing that could you explain how Rivlin would have got around 704?


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Online ngb1066

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2013, 11:45:AM »
Sorry ngb, I have more questions if you could assist...

Paragraph 704 of the Code of Conduct:

Drafting documents

704. A barrister must not devise facts which will assist in advancing the lay client's case and must not draft any statement of case, witness statement, affidavit, notice of appeal or other document containing:

(a) any statement of fact or contention which is not supported by the lay client or by his instructions;

(b) any contention which he does not consider to be properly arguable;

(c) any allegation of fraud unless he has clear instructions to make such allegation and has before him reasonably credible material which as it stands establishes a prima facie case of fraud;

(d) in the case of a witness statement or affidavit any statement of fact other than the evidence which in substance according to his instructions the barrister reasonably believes the witness would give if the evidence contained in the witness statement or affidavit were being given in oral examination;

 provided that nothing in this paragraph shall prevent a barrister drafting a document containing specific factual statements or contentions included by the barrister subject to confirmation of their accuracy by the lay client or witness.


I'm struggling to find definitions of 'fraud' and 'reasonable credible material' within the context of the code. I did find this, which is an extract from the HoL judgment in Medcalf v Weatherill:

    22. Paragraph 606(c) lays down an important and salutary principle. The parties to contested actions are often at daggers drawn, and the litigious process serves to exacerbate the hostility between them. Such clients are only too ready to make allegations of the most damaging kind against each other. While counsel should never lend his name to such allegations unless instructed to do so, the receipt of instructions is not of itself enough. Counsel is bound to exercise an objective professional judgment whether it is in all the circumstances proper to lend his name to the allegation. As the rule recognises, counsel could not properly judge it proper to make such an allegation unless he had material before him which he judged to be reasonably credible and which appeared to justify the allegation. At the hearing stage, counsel cannot properly make or persist in an allegation which is unsupported by admissible evidence, since if there is not admissible evidence to support the allegation the court cannot be invited to find that it has been proved, and if the court cannot be invited to find that the allegation has been proved the allegation should not be made or should be withdrawn. I would however agree with Wilson J that at the preparatory stage the requirement is not that counsel should necessarily have before him evidence in admissible form but that he should have material of such a character as to lead responsible counsel to conclude that serious allegations could properly be based upon it. I could not think, for example, that it would be professionally improper for counsel to plead allegations, however serious, based on the documented conclusions of a DTI inspector or a public inquiry, even though counsel had no access to the documents referred to and the findings in question were inadmissible hearsay. On this point I would accept the judgment of Wilson J.

I believe 606 is now 704.

The Medcalf case is obviously civil rather than criminal, so are there different rules in the criminal context, or failing that could you explain how Rivlin would have got around 704?

It only relates to civil cases Bridget.  The position in criminal cases is set out in the earlier posts.  The reason is that the interests of justice require that a defendant must be free to advance his defence without undue restriction, since liberty is at stake.  Counsel in civil cases have to be far more circumspect in making allegations against witnesses for the opposing party.

 


Offline Bridget

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Re: 'Nothing really substantively new....'
« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2013, 12:02:PM »
It only relates to civil cases Bridget.  The position in criminal cases is set out in the earlier posts.  The reason is that the interests of justice require that a defendant must be free to advance his defence without undue restriction, since liberty is at stake.  Counsel in civil cases have to be far more circumspect in making allegations against witnesses for the opposing party.

Thank you :)
....just cos I eat worms...