Spent bullet cases in the bedroom

[Kaldin]

I don't get where her head was when the second shot was fired. It can't have been where it's depicted in the photos because there wouldn't be room to hold the gun in the correct position.

[Kaldin]

this may sound like a stupid queston, and i apologise if it has been answered else where.

 but, where did the blood on sheilas lower arm come from?

if she was lying down when she was shot, then it cant be her blood can it?

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Blood on her arm got there at the time she struggled with one of the other adult victims...

how did the prosecution explain the blood on her lower arm, or was it never questioned?

There was a suggestion by MacDonnell that her hand was against the fatal wound and then it was moved, and that's how the blood got onto her arm. I forget when he said that though.

[andrea]

exactly kaldin, thats why i and others think sheilas body was moved into that position before the photos were taken, and look at her nightdress, its rucked up behind her, as if she has been dragged into that position. in my opinion

[mike tesko]

I don't get where her head was when the second shot was fired. It can't have been where it's depicted in the photos because there wouldn't be room to hold the gun in the correct position.

................

Correct not enough room to position the gun, with or without a silencer, and so somebody moved the body, of course...

[andrea]

this may sound like a stupid queston, and i apologise if it has been answered else where.

 but, where did the blood on sheilas lower arm come from?

if she was lying down when she was shot, then it cant be her blood can it?

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the blood on her lower arm doesnt look like its rested against the wound, the blood looks like its dripped on to her arm
Blood on her arm got there at the time she struggled with one of the other adult victims...

how did the prosecution explain the blood on her lower arm, or was it never questioned?

There was a suggestion by MacDonnell that her hand was against the fatal wound and then it was moved, and that's how the blood got onto her arm. I forget when he said that though.

[mike tesko]

exactly kaldin, thats why i and others think sheilas body was moved into that position before the photos were taken, and look at her nightdress, its rucked up behind her, as if she has been dragged into that position. in my opinion

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If body was moved, after Sheila was shot, why doesn't the flow of blood from the upper entry wound reflect this movement?

[Kaldin]

exactly kaldin, thats why i and others think sheilas body was moved into that position before the photos were taken, and look at her nightdress, its rucked up behind her, as if she has been dragged into that position. in my opinion

It's possible that her head was slightly up against the cabinet when the fatal shot was fired and her head fell to the right on the floor, but then I would expect it to be leaning more to the right. Looking at the way the blood has come out of her mouth on both sides and into her left eye, it seems it wasn't leaning to the right.

[curiousessex]

To both Mike and Kaldin - Which direction do you both think blood flows from the first wound (the lower wound). I can see blood inside the lower wound and cannot beleive that this wound did not bleed. If Sheila committed suicide she must have been still been alive before the second fatal wound (the upper wound).

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Blood from lower wound ran in a totally different direction than blood from the upper entry wound, as can be seen by examination of this particular enlarged photograph, blood from the lower wound ran slightly off vertical:-

I will re-post a better picture to illustrate the direction, at which the lower non fatal wound bled...

Both wounds have blood flow in the general direction to the right hand side of Sheila's neck. There is no blood flow in the general direction of directly down the body (which would occur if one is in the upright position for a period of time (whether standing or sitting). There is no blood flow to the left hand side of Sheila's neck. So, in my opinion, this, whilst not being a direct point to point exact replication of the two independent blood flows they share similar direction. This, to me, would indicate the wounds were inflicted within a short period of one another (maybe a couple or few seconds).

How did the blood get onto her nightdress though? It would have to go uphill if she was lying down.

When blood is in contact with fabrics there is the matter of absorbtion as well as gravity. All fluids will flow in a path of least resistance. Once a path is established fluids will then flow in that directionuntil, gravity, absorption or surface tension takes over.

In the book 'Blood Relations' it is mentioned that blood had collected inbetween Sheila's resting arm and body and then was released when the body was moved. The book also provides an explanation re the nightdress shape / folds in material under the body.

[andrea]

the blood on the lower arm doesnt look as though it got there through being against the neck wound. it looks as if it has dripped on to the arm.

[mike tesko]

One of the firearms officers described seeing Sheila's head as leaning up against the bedside cabinet?

But if her head was leaning up against the bedside cabinet she could not have been shot under the chin, because of the path and trajectory taken by the fatal bullet, and the need or requirement to position the rifle, with or without a silencer into a position so as to inflict that fatal wound under the chin - whilst her head was lent against the bedside cabinet...

Impossible scenario in my opinion...

[curiousessex]

One of the firearms officers described seeing Sheila's head as leaning up against the bedside cabinet?

But if her head was leaning up against the bedside cabinet she could not have been shot under the chin, because of the path and trajectory taken by the fatal bullet, and the need or requirement to position the rifle, with or without a silencer into a position so as to inflict that fatal wound under the chin - whilst her head was lent against the bedside cabinet...

Impossible scenario in my opinion...

An impossible scenario for suicide or murder, in your opinion?

[Kaldin]

To both Mike and Kaldin - Which direction do you both think blood flows from the first wound (the lower wound). I can see blood inside the lower wound and cannot beleive that this wound did not bleed. If Sheila committed suicide she must have been still been alive before the second fatal wound (the upper wound).

--------------------------

Blood from lower wound ran in a totally different direction than blood from the upper entry wound, as can be seen by examination of this particular enlarged photograph, blood from the lower wound ran slightly off vertical:-

I will re-post a better picture to illustrate the direction, at which the lower non fatal wound bled...

Both wounds have blood flow in the general direction to the right hand side of Sheila's neck. There is no blood flow in the general direction of directly down the body (which would occur if one is in the upright position for a period of time (whether standing or sitting). There is no blood flow to the left hand side of Sheila's neck. So, in my opinion, this, whilst not being a direct point to point exact replication of the two independent blood flows they share similar direction. This, to me, would indicate the wounds were inflicted within a short period of one another (maybe a couple or few seconds).

How did the blood get onto her nightdress though? It would have to go uphill if she was lying down.

When blood is in contact with fabrics there is the matter of absorbtion as well as gravity. All fluids will flow in a path of least resistance. Once a path is established fluids will then flow in that directionuntil, gravity, absorption or surface tension takes over.

In the book 'Blood Relations' it is mentioned that blood had collected inbetween Sheila's resting arm and body and then was released when the body was moved. The book also provides an explanation re the nightdress shape / folds in material under the body.

But it can't go uphill surely. If she had been lying down when both shots occurred, the blood would have run to the side of her neck and onto the carpet.

[Kaldin]

One of the firearms officers described seeing Sheila's head as leaning up against the bedside cabinet?

But if her head was leaning up against the bedside cabinet she could not have been shot under the chin, because of the path and trajectory taken by the fatal bullet, and the need or requirement to position the rifle, with or without a silencer into a position so as to inflict that fatal wound under the chin - whilst her head was lent against the bedside cabinet...

Impossible scenario in my opinion...

Hmmmmm, yes, I agree with that.

[mike tesko]

One of the firearms officers described seeing Sheila's head as leaning up against the bedside cabinet?

But if her head was leaning up against the bedside cabinet she could not have been shot under the chin, because of the path and trajectory taken by the fatal bullet, and the need or requirement to position the rifle, with or without a silencer into a position so as to inflict that fatal wound under the chin - whilst her head was lent against the bedside cabinet...

Impossible scenario in my opinion...

An impossible scenario for suicide or murder, in your opinion?

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I am saying that with Sheila's head resting up against the bedside cabinet, as described by one of the firearms team, when he allegedly first saw Sheila's body in the bedroom, that it would have been impossible to fit the rifle, or the rifle with the silencer attached, to the end of the guns barrel, under the chin to fire the fatal bullet, because there simply would not have been enough room, to position the gun, however it was configured, so that the fatal bullet could be discharged from the weapon, and take the path and trajectory that the fatal bullet took, and that this could not have been the case, be it a murder, or a suicide...

Sheila was shot elsewhere, not there on the bedroom floor...

in my opinion...

This being so, and because Sheila's body was moved into that position after she was shot and killed, why doesn't the blood that can be seen to be leaking and running from the upper wound, show evidence of this (movement)?

[curiousessex]

To both Mike and Kaldin - Which direction do you both think blood flows from the first wound (the lower wound). I can see blood inside the lower wound and cannot beleive that this wound did not bleed. If Sheila committed suicide she must have been still been alive before the second fatal wound (the upper wound).

--------------------------

Blood from lower wound ran in a totally different direction than blood from the upper entry wound, as can be seen by examination of this particular enlarged photograph, blood from the lower wound ran slightly off vertical:-

I will re-post a better picture to illustrate the direction, at which the lower non fatal wound bled...

Both wounds have blood flow in the general direction to the right hand side of Sheila's neck. There is no blood flow in the general direction of directly down the body (which would occur if one is in the upright position for a period of time (whether standing or sitting). There is no blood flow to the left hand side of Sheila's neck. So, in my opinion, this, whilst not being a direct point to point exact replication of the two independent blood flows they share similar direction. This, to me, would indicate the wounds were inflicted within a short period of one another (maybe a couple or few seconds).

How did the blood get onto her nightdress though? It would have to go uphill if she was lying down.

When blood is in contact with fabrics there is the matter of absorbtion as well as gravity. All fluids will flow in a path of least resistance. Once a path is established fluids will then flow in that directionuntil, gravity, absorption or surface tension takes over.

In the book 'Blood Relations' it is mentioned that blood had collected inbetween Sheila's resting arm and body and then was released when the body was moved. The book also provides an explanation re the nightdress shape / folds in material under the body.

But it can't go uphill surely. If she had been lying down when both shots occurred, the blood would have run to the side of her neck and onto the carpet.

There is digression.

Kaldin..... Try putting a string of absorbent fabric into a half full glass of water and have one end of the string of fabric over the lip of the glass........over time water will drip outside the glass.

The point I was trying to establish is given the general directional flow of blood from the wounds, it would indicate to me, that both of the wounds occured within a short period of time (a few seconds rather than minutes) whether it be a suicide or a murder.