Potential For The Silencer To Have Been Contaminated And The Judge's Summing Up

[Bridget]

HI NN,

I agree, some people here still refer to the blood as though there can be no doubt that it originated from Sheila and that isn't true!!

Who does?

[killingeve]

Great post trouble  

No sure if this helps you in your analysis, but I have gone to great lengths to get this information.  However, the information is from a book, but the person that wrote it was a master in crime and criminology. This is dated 1967. 

*In Britain blood groups in the population are roughly distributed as:  O 46% A 42% B 9% and AB 3%   

Based on the above figures, we could safely say that half the Country was either ABO A or B in 1985.

I think the summing up is purely based on the fact that there were 5 people with either blood group O or A....So in theory the blood found in the silencer had to belong to one or more of the victims.  I suppose looking back, compared to today's modern science, it was a guess at who's blood was in the silencer, it was of course said it was Sheila's blood with her having a contact wound, but I think the jury was mislead by this, because there were 4 contact wounds, therefore it could have belonged to any of the victims with the same blood group, which of course was June. 

In the COA it was said that it MAY be Sheila's but it was deemed now to have been June's this was of course after the LCN DNA test.  There was another persons DNA found that of a male, which remains unidentified.

I doubt the jury were blood experts in 1986 and nor would a jury be an expert of DNA today. It is a complex subject of maybe's or could be's.......No one gives a definitive answer and categorically says that Shelia's DNA was in the silencer, thus making the idea it was void and meaningless. 

Hi Patti

Thanks for the % figs on ABO.

Five tests were carried out on the sample found in the silencer including ABO as follows:

ABO : PGM : EAP : AK : Hp

They all produced results with the exception of PGM as the enzyme anyalysed in this particular test had already broken down rendering it uselss. 

Corresponding tests were carried out on the 5 victims as per the table in post #1 of the thread and produced results across all five tests.  So the comparison is not just between ABO but the 3 other tests that also produced results (not PGM as the sample in the silencer was unable to produce a result).  As I said I believe about 10% of the population would share the same results across all four tests.

As the relatives found the silencer they were all asked to provide samples, which they did, to eliminate the potential for contamination I assume.  I understand it was 'all living relatives' but I don't know who exactly provided samples.  However I can confirm that RB's matched the sample found in the silencer and SC's across all four readings.

Do we know when the samples were taken from the victims?  I'm not sure if these tests would be carried out as a matter of course or whether samples were taken on the back of the silencer being analysed.  If the latter I wonder why the PGM test could produce a reading from the victims but not the sample in the silencer?  Pehaps the enzyme breaks down more quickly once outside the body?

Imo the jury should have been advised of the potential for contamination especially given that RB's blood sample matched the sample found in the silencer and SC's across all four readings.  The jury should then have been allowed to decide for themselves whether it was worthy of consideration or something to be dismissed in light of all the other evidence presented a trial.

[tyler]

I have a rare blood group that only 15% of the population have. Is not the same as my mother's so would I have inherited it from my father? Or not necessarily.

[killingeve]

I have a rare blood group that only 15% of the population have. Is not the same as my mother's so would I have inherited it from my father? Or not necessarily.

Which group? 

[tyler]

Which group?

I am A negative 

[lookout]

I have a rare blood group that only 15% of the population have. Is not the same as my mother's so would I have inherited it from my father? Or not necessarily.

Your father,Tyler.

[Patti]

I am A negative

My mother was RH Negative. She had to have a complete blood change when she had me...

I am blood group A D-Positive.....

[tyler]

Your father,Tyler.

I only ask,as there is dispute over who is my biological father. The man my mother alleges (who is the father of my older brother) denies it. I havent got the guts to ask him for a DNA test,as I dont know him very well. I dont want a new dad.I loved the one that brought me up,but not knowing my real identity has messed with my head for years 

[lookout]

I only ask,as there is dispute over who is my biological father. The man my mother alleges (who is the father of my older brother) denies it. I havent got the guts to ask him for a DNA test,as I dont know him very well. I dont want a new dad.I loved the one that brought me up,but not knowing my real identity has messed with my head for years 

Tyler,,I'm group O pos. My late husband was A neg. My eldest daughter and step-daughter are both A neg like their father.

[tyler]

Tyler,,I'm group O pos. My late husband was A neg. My eldest daughter and step-daughter are both A neg like their father.

Both my mother-in-law and one of my best friends are A negative. Maybe not as rare anymore then? Mind you,I was told about the 15% by the midwife back in 1990 when pregnant with my first child! My first 4 children were rhesus positive like their father and so I had to have the anti-D injection afterwards. My youngest son by my second and current husband is rhesus negative,same as me. No injection after his birth,thank god!

[Patti]

I only ask,as there is dispute over who is my biological father. The man my mother alleges (who is the father of my older brother) denies it. I havent got the guts to ask him for a DNA test,as I dont know him very well. I dont want a new dad.I loved the one that brought me up,but not knowing my real identity has messed with my head for years 

Awwwwwwwwww 

[lookout]

Both my mother-in-law and one of my best friends are A negative. Maybe not as rare anymore then? Mind you,I was told about the 15% by the midwife back in 1990 when pregnant with my first child! My first 4 children were rhesus positive like their father and so I had to have the anti-D injection afterwards. My youngest son by my second and current husband is rhesus negative,same as me. No injection after his birth,thank god!

What I did find with those who are A neg,,are certain skin conditions which are peculiar to that particular blood group.

[tyler]

What I did find with those who are A neg,,are certain skin conditions which are peculiar to that particular blood group.

Oh? I suffer with dermatitis from time to time,but thats about it!

[killingeve]

I carried out a mini experiment last year re the possibility of the silencer being contaminated from the bucket of water containing blood/stained clothing.  There appears to have been an assumption that as Sheila was menstruating that it was menstrual blood.  As per AE's wit stat when she was asked by (SJ) how she knew it was menstrual blood she said that it smelled differently.  I wanted to find out if this was true and if there were any other differences.  This is what I discovered (I would point out that it was Patti who talked me into doing the fuller experiment  )

APPARATUS

3 brand new buckets
3 brand new dish cloths
Cold tap water
Sterilised sharpened kitchen knife
2 bottles Rochefort 10 beer @ 11.3% abv = 7.4 units alcohol
Iphone/music/headphones

METHOD

Used 1 x dish cloth instead of normal tampon to absorb menstrual blood throughout day (a day spent at home).  Around 8 pm (Wed) placed heavily soiled dish cloth in bucket filled with water to about a 1cm depth.

Bolted down two bottles of Rochfort 10 to numb the pain  .  Headphones/music on to drown out the sound of tearing skin  .  Made incision under knee to draw blood sufficient to cover dish cloth as 1 above.  Around 8 pm (Wed) placed heavily soiled dish cloth in bucket filled with water to about a 1cm depth.

Control bowl with clean dish cloth as 1 and 2 above to eliminate any smells from bowl/cloth alone.

RESULTS

Checked for any changes morning and evening: Thu, Fri and Sat.  From Sat morn, but not before, changes took place as follows:

Odour

A barely detectable odour was present.  However the odour from both bowls was identical.  The odour reminded me of rust and was reminiscent of the water that collected in my Dad's water butt which was I believe made out of some sort of metal.  I observed the buckets over one week with water at 1 cm depth and a further week at 10 cm depth and the odour was identical for both buckets.

Colour

Both buckets of water started of a rose colour and from Sat morn turned a slightly darker shade by the end of two weeks the colour resembled deep burgundy/brown.

Consistency

As I lifted the buckets to smell the contents I noticed that a skum/film began to form on top of the water and around the sides.  When the water level moved from my lifting of the buckets the skum/film moved from the top and clung to the sides.  Very tiny particles also formed at the bottom.  Looked a little like dark sand 

At the end of week one I topped up the water level to about 10 cm by the end of week two the odour had disappeared (too diluted I assume) and the colur and consistency remained broadly the same just slightly weaker.

CONCLUSION

The contents of bowls 1 and 2 behaved exactly the same at the same time in terms of

- odour
- colour
- consistency

There were no changes in control bucket 3.

When Stan Jones (?) asked AE how she knew it was menstrual blood she said it smelled differently?  What was she comparing it with?  He said make sure you tell the court that.

What exactly was in the buckets and how did they come to be?

Did any of the contents eg scum, film, or watery blood contaminate the silencer?





 

[susan]

Wow N/N you are a hardy lassie as they say in these parts.  Very well done for all the trouble you went to and as a result you have proved a very good point.