Nevill Bamber's (alleged) call to the police?

[John]

I cannot understand why there is any dispute here.

Either Mr Bamber senior made the call or he did not.

Either there is a proper record of such a call or there is not.

Can someone please clarify this?

[mike tesko]

I cannot understand why there is any dispute here.

Either Mr Bamber senior made the call or he did not.

Either there is a proper record of such a call or there is not.

Can someone please clarify this?

... The original document has never yet been presented or disclosed by EP, or the DPP, or the CPS - so that the contents on the reverse side of the copy version supplied, can be read with a view to confirming that the contents of page 1, are born out of calls, made by Ralph, and Jeremy. In addition, it will be possible to tell if the content on page 1, was written up by Bonnet all in one go, or even by the use of the same coloured pen. The original has been withheld with these features in mind...

[John]

I cannot understand why there is any dispute here.

Either Mr Bamber senior made the call or he did not.

Either there is a proper record of such a call or there is not.

Can someone please clarify this?

... The original document has never yet been presented or disclosed by EP, or the DPP, or the CPS - so that the contents on the reverse side of the copy version supplied, can be read with a view to confirming that the contents of page 1, are born out of calls, made by Ralph, and Jeremy. In addition, it will be possible to tell if the content on page 1, was written up by Bonnet all in one go, or even by the use of the same coloured pen. The original has been withheld with these features in mind...

Please bear with me if I ask something which may be obvious to the more informed member.

What steps have been taken to obtain these documents and why have they failed.  What I cannot understand is why the prosecution have been allowed to withhold these documents for so long when they form such an important part of any defence?

Is the justice system so rotten and corrupt in England so as to permit this?

[Pete0001]

I cannot understand why there is any dispute here.

Either Mr Bamber senior made the call or he did not.

Either there is a proper record of such a call or there is not.

Can someone please clarify this?

... The original document has never yet been presented or disclosed by EP, or the DPP, or the CPS - so that the contents on the reverse side of the copy version supplied, can be read with a view to confirming that the contents of page 1, are born out of calls, made by Ralph, and Jeremy. In addition, it will be possible to tell if the content on page 1, was written up by Bonnet all in one go, or even by the use of the same coloured pen. The original has been withheld with these features in mind...

Please bear with me if I ask something which may be obvious to the more informed member.

What steps have been taken to obtain these documents and why have they failed.  What I cannot understand is why the prosecution have been allowed to withhold these documents for so long when they form such an important part of any defence?

Is the justice system so rotten and corrupt in England so as to permit this?

Exactly... we are told they are being hidden... I would like to know wha the request was and what the official responce was to the request.

I also feel that any answer given will never be accepted unless it points to JB's innocence.

I understand why this is such a sticking point... the defense realise that casting any kind of cloud over this particular part of the case would give JB a good chance of retrial/thrown out of court... (if Neville called JB couldn't have killed him).
This IS why you pay lawyers so much money.. because they go over every little detail and look for either a)evidence or b)errors.
If the Police are to be beleived and there was only one call from JB then they wouldn't give any of this a second thought as to them its just a total fabrication of the truth.. I truly doubt there is any evidence left regarding this matter, I'm sure the Police destroyed it, perfectly lagitamately in the course of their duties as there was laready a record of the call made and they never iamagined this would come up.
Just a thought.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

There are really two theoretical calls to consider here:

1) The alleged call from Father to Son saying "Help, sheila's gone mad and has a gun" (paraphrased)
The existence of THIS call is 100% paramount to JB's case. JB said it happened, but it's never been proven or disproven. If this call COULD be proven, JB goes free (in all likelihood).
The essential rationale for the Father to call Son is that the Father didn't want to get the police involved, and just wanted to 'keep it in the family' (entirely plausible, depending on the gravity of the situation inside the house at the time)

2) A possible call from Father to the police saying much the same thing as to the son in (1).
The potential for the existence of this call seems far less likely, although not impossible.
The rationale for this call (if it ever happened), would be some escalation in the gravity of the situation at the house, or impatience with Son not arriving at the house, so changed his mind and called the police?
The problem with any notion of this call is:
a) There's no real compelling evidence to say it happened. (although there are some curious activities regarding sending two cars to the scene of crime, but seemingly not at the same time)
b) There's no note of any 'esclation' of events at the farm
c) If events had escalated, 999 (and not local station) would arguably be the number called. (However, Father WAS a local magistrate and may have readily known the station number)

IF (2) ever happened, it's the same situation as (1) - JB walks free (in all likelihood).


What we DO know regarding the phone at the house was that a phone (in the kitchen) was off the hook, STRONGLY suggesting a) a call (or attempt) was made OR b) the killer took the phone off the hook in the kitchen to prevent anybody upstairs waking and calling for help OR c) the killer took it off the hook in order to corroborate the 'made a call' story or D) both b & c.

We are also led to believe that it was not possible to prove (via call logs/tests) if a call was made from WHF to anywhere, let alone a police station or the Son (in Goldhanger) - something which a number of people worry about - why WAS it so difficult to prove a call was or wasn't made? (accepting that call logging/billing wasn't as detailed as it is today, it ought not to have been rocket science either).

Finally there's a bit of confusion regarding the timing of the Son's call to the police, where someone 'misread' a digital clock by 10 minutes.


As an aside, the Son also made calls either side of the deaths to Julie Mugford the contents of which could only ever be revealed by Mugford.
Mugford who had originally given a statement to the police saying nothing bad about the Son later confessed that he had suggested prior to the deaths (the evening before) that he WAS going to carry out the killings, but Mugford had dismissed it as fanciful talk. She only went on to reveal that after the deaths, he called to say 'all was going well' (going to plan regarding the killings). The timing of the call after the deaths was ALSO difficult to pinpoint, but generally agreed it would be anywhere from 3.00 - 3.30am.


I think I've summarised it all - but could have a few mistakes in there. Others will be quick to point them out ! ;-)

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Just as footnote:


IF NB did call JB, it does not PROVE JB's innocence, it merely strongly suggests it, so strongly that it's likely it could result in JB's freedom.

It is a very remote possibility that JB could have received the call, then 'seized the opportunity' to go and kill the family (but would have had to overcome Sheila if Sheila still had a gun having not calmed down).

So what I'm saying is, in opposition to Mike Tesko's assertion - the existence of the call would not categorically prove JB's innocence (a technical point)

[Pete0001]

Just as footnote:


IF NB did call JB, it does not PROVE JB's innocence, it merely strongly suggests it, so strongly that it's likely it could result in JB's freedom.

No, but if NB did call the Police that would prove JB's innocence.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

No, it wouldn't for the same reasons as above.

NB calling the police means what? Sheila did get angry with a gun (assuming he called about that).

Who THEN went on to kill everybody isn't proven by that call, it just massively suggests it.


If I phone the police today "Help, my daughter has gun" and I end up dead 30 minutes later. It does NOT prove the daughter did it.

[Pete0001]

No, it wouldn't for the same reasons as above.

NB calling the police means what? Sheila did get angry with a gun (assuming he called about that).

Because if we're believing that Neville called the Police then we're also believing the time as 3.26 (or whatever it was) and JB called at 3.36 (or there abouts etc etc).. and the Police passed Jeremy driving to the farm after call... the call which held him on the phone for some time.

If the theory is believed, JB couldn't have called the Police from his home at the time he did and still kill Neville if Neville had been on the phone to Police just prior to JB's call.

Who THEN went on to kill everybody isn't proven by that call, it just massively suggests it.


If I phone the police today "Help, my daughter has gun" and I end up dead 30 minutes later. It does NOT prove the daughter did it.

Ermm I didn't say Sheila did it... I said that JB couldn't have done it if the defense prove that NB called the police when they say he did...

[mike tesko]

I cannot understand why there is any dispute here.

Either Mr Bamber senior made the call or he did not.

Either there is a proper record of such a call or there is not.

Can someone please clarify this?

... The original document has never yet been presented or disclosed by EP, or the DPP, or the CPS - so that the contents on the reverse side of the copy version supplied, can be read with a view to confirming that the contents of page 1, are born out of calls, made by Ralph, and Jeremy. In addition, it will be possible to tell if the content on page 1, was written up by Bonnet all in one go, or even by the use of the same coloured pen. The original has been withheld with these features in mind...

Please bear with me if I ask something which may be obvious to the more informed member.

What steps have been taken to obtain these documents and why have they failed.  What I cannot understand is why the prosecution have been allowed to withhold these documents for so long when they form such an important part of any defence?

Is the justice system so rotten and corrupt in England so as to permit this?

... First of all, lets put things into perspective, the phone message log (3.26am) was not disclosed at trial, nor was it an official court exhibit. The truth of the matter is that a photocopy of the aforementioned log, was copied onto the reverse of another original log that Malcomb Bonnet later completed, after 4.02am, the original of which was an official court exhibit. Somebody sought to introduce the copy of the call log timed at 3.26am, as a valid court exhibit by copying it onto the reverse of another original court exhibit, without notifyng counsel for the defense, or the prosecution, that such a record even existed. What actually happened, is that PC West was due to give an account to exlain why he recorded the time of Jeremy's call maf to him at 3.36am, by claiming that the clock in the control room was ten minutes fast - thereby making the time of Jeremy's call as 3.26am. What somebody appears to have done, is they have copied the details of a series of messages recorded by Malcomb Bonnet which he began recording from 3.26am, by copying it, as described. The copy log was covertly introduced by this process, as a potential foil, to back up PC West's claim that he called him at 3.26am, and not at 3.36am, by a reliance on the time of the clock being ten minutes fast...

[joolz1975]

All this is giving me a headache!

You people are too clever for me, wish i was more intelligent hehehe!

Anyway for what its worth i dont believe for one minute their were two calls to the police!

Im sort of thinking that Bambers legal team are desperatly asking for any evidence they can and must be increasingly frustrated that all they are finding out is there is no proof he didnt do it.

I admire Mikes loyalty and maybe im cynical but i think we are being fed only the information that JB wants us to hear (not a dig at you Mike i just think you are possibly as in the dark as we are) i feel they are Cherry picking snippets of info that HINT at his innocence knowing that they have NOTHING concrete!

One things for sure if JB is ever released it will be on a technicality and not because hes been proved innocent because lets face it if that proof existed it would have come to light by now!

[jon]

All this is giving me a headache!

You people are too clever for me, wish i was more intelligent hehehe!

Anyway for what its worth i dont believe for one minute their were two calls to the police!

Im sort of thinking that Bambers legal team are desperatly asking for any evidence they can and must be increasingly frustrated that all they are finding out is there is no proof he didnt do it.

I admire Mikes loyalty and maybe im cynical but i think we are being fed only the information that JB wants us to hear (not a dig at you Mike i just think you are possibly as in the dark as we are) i feel they are Cherry picking snippets of info that HINT at his innocence knowing that they have NOTHING concrete!

One things for sure if JB is ever released it will be on a technicality and not because hes been proved innocent because lets face it if that proof existed it would have come to light by now!

Do you think we could hear one single concrete piece of evidence which proves his guilt , as the last time i looked British law had to be proven beyond doubt . Not by a scorned girlfriend nor by relatives with a possible financial gain in mind , take JM and relatives out of the equation there wouldnt have been a murder trial .

[joolz1975]

All this is giving me a headache!

You people are too clever for me, wish i was more intelligent hehehe!

Anyway for what its worth i dont believe for one minute their were two calls to the police!

Im sort of thinking that Bambers legal team are desperatly asking for any evidence they can and must be increasingly frustrated that all they are finding out is there is no proof he didnt do it.

I admire Mikes loyalty and maybe im cynical but i think we are being fed only the information that JB wants us to hear (not a dig at you Mike i just think you are possibly as in the dark as we are) i feel they are Cherry picking snippets of info that HINT at his innocence knowing that they have NOTHING concrete!

One things for sure if JB is ever released it will be on a technicality and not because hes been proved innocent because lets face it if that proof existed it would have come to light by now!

Do you think we could hear one single concrete piece of evidence which proves his guilt , as the last time i looked British law had to be proven beyond doubt . Not by a scorned girlfriend nor by relatives with a possible financial gain in mind , take JM and relatives out of the equation there wouldnt have been a murder trial .

Id like to see a single piece of evidence that hes innocent to be honest!

Nothing concrete either way has made my mind up and yes it should have been proven beyond a doubt that he was guilty, the system failed him but it still doesnt mean he didnt do it! just means his defence was crap and the police did a botched job (in my opinion)

[jon]

All this is giving me a headache!

You people are too clever for me, wish i was more intelligent hehehe!

Anyway for what its worth i dont believe for one minute their were two calls to the police!

Im sort of thinking that Bambers legal team are desperatly asking for any evidence they can and must be increasingly frustrated that all they are finding out is there is no proof he didnt do it.

I admire Mikes loyalty and maybe im cynical but i think we are being fed only the information that JB wants us to hear (not a dig at you Mike i just think you are possibly as in the dark as we are) i feel they are Cherry picking snippets of info that HINT at his innocence knowing that they have NOTHING concrete!

One things for sure if JB is ever released it will be on a technicality and not because hes been proved innocent because lets face it if that proof existed it would have come to light by now!

Do you think we could hear one single concrete piece of evidence which proves his guilt , as the last time i looked British law had to be proven beyond doubt . Not by a scorned girlfriend nor by relatives with a possible financial gain in mind , take JM and relatives out of the equation there wouldnt have been a murder trial .

Id like to see a single piece of evidence that hes innocent to be honest!

Nothing concrete either way has made my mind up and yes it should have been proven beyond a doubt that he was guilty, the system failed him but it still doesnt mean he didnt do it! just means his defence was crap and the police did a botched job (in my opinion)

Fair comment , but you being a lady you must be able to see the chances of any woman sleeping and holidaying with a man who has shot two innocent children dead very remote to say the least , to my mind it beggars belief .

[joolz1975]

All this is giving me a headache!

You people are too clever for me, wish i was more intelligent hehehe!

Anyway for what its worth i dont believe for one minute their were two calls to the police!

Im sort of thinking that Bambers legal team are desperatly asking for any evidence they can and must be increasingly frustrated that all they are finding out is there is no proof he didnt do it.

I admire Mikes loyalty and maybe im cynical but i think we are being fed only the information that JB wants us to hear (not a dig at you Mike i just think you are possibly as in the dark as we are) i feel they are Cherry picking snippets of info that HINT at his innocence knowing that they have NOTHING concrete!

One things for sure if JB is ever released it will be on a technicality and not because hes been proved innocent because lets face it if that proof existed it would have come to light by now!

Do you think we could hear one single concrete piece of evidence which proves his guilt , as the last time i looked British law had to be proven beyond doubt . Not by a scorned girlfriend nor by relatives with a possible financial gain in mind , take JM and relatives out of the equation there wouldnt have been a murder trial .

Id like to see a single piece of evidence that hes innocent to be honest!

Nothing concrete either way has made my mind up and yes it should have been proven beyond a doubt that he was guilty, the system failed him but it still doesnt mean he didnt do it! just means his defence was crap and the police did a botched job (in my opinion)

Fair comment , but you being a lady you must be able to see the chances of any woman sleeping and holidaying with a man who has shot two innocent children dead very remote to say the least , to my mind it beggars belief .

Think it depend on the woman! if she was that heartless that she didnt tip off the police or family that she thought they were in danger knowing there were two kids in the house then she obvioulsy had no sense of whats right or wrong!

Look at these women that write to death row killers!! there are some nutjobs about! on the bamber is innocent facebook page (im not a member) there was a woman posting how she wanted him released as he was sexy!

Think JM is scum on either count, if JB did do it and she knew in advance she should have been charged as an accesory. If he didnt and she made the whole thing up then shes a liar and deserves to rot!

Incidentally how well did the Boutflours know her? seen some mention on here of things that Robert knew about her was there any sort of relationship there??