Author Topic: Re: Adoption Debate  (Read 22977 times)

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Offline Jane

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #120 on: March 06, 2013, 09:33:PM »
Sheila's behaviour was normal for a girl/woman of her age. June also did insist that Sheila terminate a pregnancy. She also miscarried.

She eventually fell on with the twins, who she adored. I dont believe for a moment that she would have killed them or Nevile. If she had, she would have did it at Maida vale, not WHF. Just my opinion.


Maybe Maida Vale didn't have the right compoments for it to happen. Maybe what happened at WHF was "The Perfect Storm." All the conditions necessary coming together at one time.

Lugg

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #121 on: March 06, 2013, 09:44:PM »

Hi Andrea

I agree Sheila loved the twins, she may have also still been in love with Colin.  But, whether we like to hear it or not mothers do kill their loved ones, for one reason or an another.  It is the same in wild life too. 

Sadly Sheila did not have the children with her at Maida Vale so the likelihood of Sheila committing any crime there is not an option.  I'm not sure if you have read Colin's book, but throughout his book he refers to the relationship of Sheila and her mother.  I also get the gist that he disliked June because she had appeared to have controlled Sheila in such a way, that it made it impossible for Sheila to be happy in her company.....

I honestly don't know who killed that family that night, but I almost certain Jeremy didn't do it.  I look at Sheila and sometimes I think it is not possible for a sweet young girl like that could have killed her family....but, then I look at other mothers who have done the same thing and asked the same question....   
I fear that the human condition is so complex and also very delicately balanced that when these chemical imbalances happen within out brains, some can even be brought on by physical chemical imbalances by eating the wrong foods or not bein able to process certain foods (I've seen thin in my own daughter after her operation) things can go drastically wrong. I've even seen people who are ok during the day. But during the night when often these chemical imbalances take place they become delusional and unrecognisable. All through chemical imbalance.

Offline Patti

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #122 on: March 06, 2013, 09:57:PM »
I fear that the human condition is so complex and also very delicately balanced that when these chemical imbalances happen within out brains, some can even be brought on by physical chemical imbalances by eating the wrong foods or not bein able to process certain foods (I've seen thin in my own daughter after her operation) things can go drastically wrong. I've even seen people who are ok during the day. But during the night when often these chemical imbalances take place they become delusional and unrecognisable. All through chemical imbalance.

Hi Lugg :)  I agree, its very complex and none of us on here has idea how this affects people and their families around them, unless you have witnessed it.  It must be awful for families to have to cope with such a situation, my heart goes out to them.  There is no quick fix to chemical imbalance, its there and that is that.

Oddly enough I have watched the documentary of Tracie Andrews tonight, with the understanding that I could relate to understanding why she did what she did. 

She tried to cover up her crime by inventing a road rage situation, that was totally false.  If it was not for a witness who claimed that the only car on the road was their's night she would have got away with it. 

The witness was vital in the prosecutions case.  The police found spatter on her jumper that could have only have been there if it was her that had killed her lover. 

She tried to commit suicide a few weeks after....maybe she could not live with the guilt....Once she was found guilty she wrote her admission of the crime from her cell. 

He famous words were....If can't have him, then no one else will...Now, where have I heard that before... :) :) :) :) 

mertol22

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #123 on: March 06, 2013, 10:28:PM »
A topic i was going to observe but not enter, for myself i think too much focus is made to Sheila unstable, if she was that ill she would be in secure care, the effect on her mind then would be unbearable, we are looking in the wrong area, i think something happened that night that triggered the events, jeremy was  no angel but i know he must have been aware of the outcome to even consider such acts no one is that stupid to think they would not get caught, only someone with nothing to loose could carry out such acts,case in point Anders Brevik i dont consider a madman, he carried out those shootings as a solution to the problem, he was aware of what he was doing, if jeremy bamber carried out those shootings then he is paying the ultimate price, his mind and soul have not been destroyed yet and that must mean something.

Offline Alias

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #124 on: March 06, 2013, 10:34:PM »
It is not true that schizophrenics are not more prone to violent acts. They are about 4 times more likely than the average population to commit violent acts. If you insist, I can dig out the links, I cannot be arsed right now.
In almost all instances, it was due to LACK OF MEDICATION OR MIXING IT WITH ALCHOHOL AND/OR ILLEGAL DRUGS. If a patient is properly medicated all is well, it seems.
IF Sheila did this, and I do say if, I blame it on that doctor who halved her very important medication.

Caroline R

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #125 on: March 07, 2013, 01:38:AM »
It is not true that schizophrenics are not more prone to violent acts. They are about 4 times more likely than the average population to commit violent acts. If you insist, I can dig out the links, I cannot be arsed right now.
In almost all instances, it was due to LACK OF MEDICATION OR MIXING IT WITH ALCHOHOL AND/OR ILLEGAL DRUGS. If a patient is properly medicated all is well, it seems.
IF Sheila did this, and I do say if, I blame it on that doctor who halved her very important medication.

Hi Alias, totally agree!! I would just like to add that their behaviour is also highly unpredictable.

Offline tyler

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #126 on: March 07, 2013, 02:01:AM »
I too agree! Schizophrenia is not curable,only manageable.Ask any mental health doctor and they will tell you that Schizophrenics are fine so long as they are medicated.

Offline Jane

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #127 on: March 07, 2013, 07:02:AM »
It is not true that schizophrenics are not more prone to violent acts. They are about 4 times more likely than the average population to commit violent acts. If you insist, I can dig out the links, I cannot be arsed right now.
In almost all instances, it was due to LACK OF MEDICATION OR MIXING IT WITH ALCHOHOL AND/OR ILLEGAL DRUGS. If a patient is properly medicated all is well, it seems.
IF Sheila did this, and I do say if, I blame it on that doctor who halved her very important medication.


Alias, I absolutely agree. I've been pushing the cavelier way in which her meds were reduced since it first occured to me what was done. It was deemed SO not worth mentioning that one of the "GUILTY" side told me that they were content with how she was being cared for and the meds she was receiving!!! Would they, I wonder, have said the same had she been their family member? What was the point of her family GP writing to her specialist to request a reduction in Meds, something he agrees to, only to have a locum override /ignore his instructions and reduce them to a staggeringly dangerous level. She also seemed not to have checked that Sheila had follow up psychiatric care. She didn't. Can you imagine what would be made of this by the media if it happened today. There were certainly grounds for her family to raise these issues. Sadly, those who may have cared enough were dead and the rest chose to go down a different road.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #128 on: March 07, 2013, 12:12:PM »
One of the biggies for me in the case is the fact that Sheila met her birth mother for the first time during May 1985.  This would have been some 10 to 14 weeks before the tragedy, dependent on when in May they met.

Nicky Cambell, radio and tv presenter, patron of British Association for Adoption and Fostering and author of book Blue-Eyed Son: The Story Of An Adoption, is interviewed about his adoption and reuniting with his birth parents:

http://www.videojug.com/interview/nicky-campbell-on-adoption

Nicky considers his adoption to have been very successful.  Even so he still highlights issues that most if not all adoptees have to deal with.  His adoptive parents already had a birth child and his adoptive mother was a psychiatric social worker.  All these things indicate that the outcomes for Nicky/his adoption experience would have have been far more favourable than most 'closed' adoptions as indeed they were.  No evidence of any dysfunction or mental illness either with Nicky's adoptive mother or Nicky.

In the 9th section re meeting his birth parents he states:

"You've got to protect yourself because its tough.  It can be very, very tough.  You're talking about raw emotional truths that you confront"

In the 11th section re advice he would give to others intending to meet their birth parents he states:

"Go into it knowing its going to be challenging."  "Get advice from professionals and good counselling."

How might Sheila have coped with her fragile mind?  Bearing in mind her view of her life/adoption etc relationship with June was unlikely to have been favourable?  A complete contrast to Nicky's.

Again Sheila's life/adoption/relationship with her adoptive mother is a complete contrast to my own.  I know how common mental illness is but I'm lucky enough never to have suffered from such an infliction.  As such I feel I was perhaps better able to cope with reuniting with my birth parents than perhaps others were.  Even so it was still a very, very emotionally draining experience despite the fact that the reunions were positive.  Albeit I only have an ongoing relationship with my birth father.

Nicky highlights the fact that there was no counselling etc available when he reunited, which was the same for myself and no doubt Sheila.  For an adoptee to obtain a copy of his/her birth certificate enabling a search and reunion a brief compulsory one-off counselling session was required as per The Children Act 1975 and the Adoption Act 1976.

When Dr Ferguson was asked what effect the reunion may have had on Sheila he said he didn't know but that the parting may have been painful.  Lofl... ;D ;D ;D.

My view and I stress it is MY view is that Sheila finding out about her family eg academics, possibly happy and well adjusted, was unable to reconcile the two identities.  That is the person she thought she may have been had she not have been adopted into the Bamber family and instead raised by her birth mother/family and the person she perceived she was as a result of being adopted by the Bambers.  I believe her visit to WHF in August, a place she disliked visiting as a result of June according to Dr Ferguson, was the first since reuniting with her birth mother.  This along with possibly other matters eg the welfare of the twins etc MAY have caused an adverse reaction resulting in the tragedy.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #129 on: March 07, 2013, 07:46:PM »

Maggie, for "complex", I'm inclined to think MESSY!!! My own mother, and possibly, June, had never received unconditional love, which makes it more likely that she/they believed that a child would be the answer to all their problems. Unwilling/unable to have one biologically, they adopted-unlike Sheila, who I believe tried very hard to go down the biological route to achieve the same outcome for similar reasons. When the child proved NOT to give them what they were seeking, it became the child's fault. It didn't do as it was told, it wasn't like the rest of the family. I can't think there were many children more wanted than I and perhaps, Sheila, but possibly with unfulfillable expectations of us. My own mother countered my adult claims that I'd never felt loved by her by telling me that I'd never shown her any love when I was little!!!! How did she think I knew how to. I feel it makes little difference to that style of mothering whether the child is biological or adopted. I think the mindset of what a child will provide for the parent, as opposed to what the parent can provide for the child, doesn't bode well for happy relationships.

Hi April

This may be true but PB had the same parents/upbriniging as June and as far as I am aware there's no evidence of  any mental illness and/or difficult relationship between PB and AE.

There's also no evidence of June having any mental illness prior to adoptin Sheila.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #130 on: March 07, 2013, 08:04:PM »

Maggie, for "complex", I'm inclined to think MESSY!!! My own mother, and possibly, June, had never received unconditional love, which makes it more likely that she/they believed that a child would be the answer to all their problems. Unwilling/unable to have one biologically, they adopted-unlike Sheila, who I believe tried very hard to go down the biological route to achieve the same outcome for similar reasons. When the child proved NOT to give them what they were seeking, it became the child's fault. It didn't do as it was told, it wasn't like the rest of the family. I can't think there were many children more wanted than I and perhaps, Sheila, but possibly with unfulfillable expectations of us. My own mother countered my adult claims that I'd never felt loved by her by telling me that I'd never shown her any love when I was little!!!! How did she think I knew how to. I feel it makes little difference to that style of mothering whether the child is biological or adopted. I think the mindset of what a child will provide for the parent, as opposed to what the parent can provide for the child, doesn't bode well for happy relationships.

Hi April

Re the above in red apparently this is quite common please see attached/intimacy section which states:  "Adoptive mothers indicate, for example, that even as an infact, the adoptee was "not cuddly".  I think my adoptive mother said similar but I can't recall what as I never paid much attention to anything she said  ;D ;D ;D

http://www.fairfamilies.org/2012/1999/99LifelongIssues.htm

Offline Jane

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #131 on: March 07, 2013, 08:05:PM »
Hi April

This may be true but PB had the same parents/upbriniging as June and as far as I am aware there's no evidence of  any mental illness and/or difficult relationship between PB and AE.

There's also no evidence of June having any mental illness prior to adoptin Sheila.


Entirely true, NaNu, but maybe PB was made of sterner stuff than June and less tramelled by their mother, a tough lady, by all accounts. Speculative, I know, but might it be possible that June did suffer bouts of depression as a child? We will never know the answer. Did June believe Pam to be the favoured one? WAS Pam the favoured one? Pam is likely to have been an entirely different mother from June but she had probably been an entirely different daughter from June.

Offline killingeve

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #132 on: March 07, 2013, 08:09:PM »

Maybe Maida Vale didn't have the right compoments for it to happen. Maybe what happened at WHF was "The Perfect Storm." All the conditions necessary coming together at one time.

Sheila did ask Freddie to keep an eye on her flat whilst she was at WHF as apparently there had been several break-ins in the area.  On this basis it appears she did intend to return. 

Offline killingeve

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #133 on: March 08, 2013, 09:30:AM »

Entirely true, NaNu, but maybe PB was made of sterner stuff than June and less tramelled by their mother, a tough lady, by all accounts. Speculative, I know, but might it be possible that June did suffer bouts of depression as a child? We will never know the answer. Did June believe Pam to be the favoured one? WAS Pam the favoured one? Pam is likely to have been an entirely different mother from June but she had probably been an entirely different daughter from June.

Good morning April

We are of course speculating but based on Colin's book it appears that the June/Nevill marriage was on equal terms or if anthing June having the upper hand ie I don't see June as the 'little woman/wife' deferring to her husband/Nevill.  According to the book Sheila never understood why Nevill remained with June and didn't leave.  I don't have the book to hand at the moment but I think after the nude sunbathing incident when Colin and Sheila decided to leave WHF together, which was not the original plan, Sheila shouted out to Colin in front of her parents "Why does he stay with her"  :-\

Could it be that June was more like her mother, Mabel Speakman, who when told of the tragedy sat bolt upright in bed and said "That'll be the Devil at work"?  Perhaps Pamela was more like her father Leslie Speakman who appears to have been a kinder/softer person ie making a fuss of Jeremy and buying him bottles of fizzy pop?  We will never know can only put our own interpretation on these matters  :)

Offline killingeve

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Re: Re: Adoption Debate
« Reply #134 on: March 08, 2013, 09:35:AM »
Just an afterthought perhaps that's why June was attracted to Nevill ie he remined her of her father, Leslie Speakman.