The case of Madeleine McCann

[Jan]

I don´t know that much about this case, but to me it seems like they are lying. Why?

And if they were , then why try and keep the case so high profile for so long?

[lookout]

I don´t know that much about this case, but to me it seems like they are lying. Why?

No,they're not lying. It was yet another bungled case right from the start.

[Roch]

No,they're not lying. It was yet another bungled case right from the start.

The case divides opinion and I understand many people feel they are tragic victims of a child abduction.  However my understanding is that in Portugal where this took place, there is far less understanding or sympathy for them. 

[Roch]

And if they were , then why try and keep the case so high profile for so long?

They have to keep the abduction scenario alive.  If they were to give up 'looking for Madeleine', people would inevitably question their commitment to the abduction scenario. 

[lookout]

The case divides opinion and I understand many people feel they are tragic victims of a child abduction.  However my understanding is that in Portugal where this took place, there is far less understanding or sympathy for them.

Yes,I think this is the general concensus when a child goes missing there,as it's just as " another missing child ". If you read about the Casa Pia childrens home,it gives you an idea where most of the children used to end up. Stories from there are horrendous.

[Roch]

Yes,I think this is the general concensus when a child goes missing there,as it's just as " another missing child ". If you read about the Casa Pia childrens home,it gives you an idea where most of the children used to end up. Stories from there are horrendous.

Madeleine is briefly mentioned in this article about Casa Pia: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/guilty-after-sixyear-trial-portugals-highsociety-paedophile-ring-2070112.html

Lookout, what do you think of the Gaspar witness statements in the McCann case?  The alleged conversation witnessed between David Payne and Gerry McCann.

[lookout]

Madeleine is briefly mentioned in this article about Casa Pia: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/guilty-after-sixyear-trial-portugals-highsociety-paedophile-ring-2070112.html

Lookout, what do you think of the Gaspar witness statements in the McCann case?  The alleged conversation witnessed between David Payne and Gerry McCann.

Roch,I didn't attach anything to the alleged conversation. It could have been an innocent conversation involving their work as doctors. When hearsay crops up,we only hear what we WANT to hear just to further their cause,and in this case,it was to blacken the names of both men.

[Roch]

Roch,I didn't attach anything to the alleged conversation. It could have been an innocent conversation involving their work as doctors. When hearsay crops up,we only hear what we WANT to hear just to further their cause,and in this case,it was to blacken the names of both men.

Hi Lookout.  Do you mean that the Gaspars set out to blacken the names of Payne/GM or that persons unknown put them up to it? 

These are the statements:  http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm

[lookout]

Hi Lookout.  Do you mean that the Gaspars set out to blacken the names of Payne/GM or that persons unknown put them up to it? 

These are the statements:  http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATERINA-PAYNE-INCIDENT.htm

Hi Roch--------question marks by both " she " and" Madeleine ".In other words,only half a story was heard,a very dangerous practice to surmise that it could have been a specific person. Men talk amongst themselves and so the conversation could have been about anyone,or indeed told to Dave by a third party at some time.
I " believe " they were talking about Madeleine. Again,a possible misinterpretation as" believe" stated in that context is not definite,as in a spoken name of a person in question.

I cannot imagine that this behaviour would be displayed as openly as allegedly stated. I would say that the whole action/s of these conversations has been misconstrued.
Yes,I think Katerina had a very vivid imagination, or was put up to it,as some will go to any lengths to lay blame on another person.

[Roch]

Hi Roch--------question marks by both " she " and" Madeleine ".In other words,only half a story was heard,a very dangerous practice to surmise that it could have been a specific person. Men talk amongst themselves and so the conversation could have been about anyone,or indeed told to Dave by a third party at some time.
I " believe " they were talking about Madeleine. Again,a possible misinterpretation as" believe" stated in that context is not definite,as in a spoken name of a person in question.

I cannot imagine that this behaviour would be displayed as openly as allegedly stated. I would say that the whole action/s of these conversations has been misconstrued.
Yes,I think Katerina had a very vivid imagination, or was put up to it,as some will go to any lengths to lay blame on another person.

Thanks for your opinion Lookout.  It's interesting that David Payne was officially the last person other than the McCann's to see Madeleine alive and that his account of that meeting has many differences compared to Kate McCann's account. 

Yvonne Martin's information is also interesting:

Yvone Martin's Witness Statements


  Report on Yvone Martin's initial conversations with the PJ, 12 June 2007
  Report on Yvone Martin's initial conversations with the PJ PJ Files

Processos Volume IX
Pages 3422 - 3424

SERVICE INFORMATION

Date: 2007 – 06 - 12

To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation, Dr. Gonçalo Amaral

From: José Monteiro, Inspector

Re: Collection of Information

In the sequence of information transmitted to this Police force, on this date we went to the residence of Yvonne Warren Martin. The team was composed of the undersigned and his colleague Carlos Antunes, in conversation with Yvone the following was established:

- On May 04, 2007, at around 07H00 she heard about the disappearance of an English girl from Praia da Luz, Lagos, from Sky News or BBC.

- Having worked for 25 years in the area of child protection, she felt obliged to offer help to her compatriots and went to Praia da Luz.

– At around 09H00, she met the McCann couple next to the apartment from where the child had disappeared, accompanied by a third person, a male, who seemed quite familiar to her.

- This third person of the group appeared to be an intimate (friend) of the family as he was the one who, when the media arrived, began to explain what was happening and answering questions, thereby saving the couple from this upset. Afterwards, she further confirmed his closeness to the family when she saw him taking care of the couple's twins, also small children.

- She identified herself and presented her credentials and immediately began talking to the mother of the missing child as she was visibly upset with the situation.

- During the conversation the mother told her that she did not understand why a couple had abducted her daughter.

- However, the third individual overheard this conversation and interrupted Ms. Martin and took the McCann couple away from her.

- This same individual came shortly afterwards to tell her that the couple did not want to talk to her any further and did not require her help—an action that appeared quite strange to her.

- Meanwhile, she heard comments next to the complex reception that the British Consul was coming to the site and she decided to wait for this person in order to offer her help.

- During this time, she saw the third individual two more times. Firstly, when he was accompanying an older woman and the McCann twins, demonstrating in this way, the trust that the couple had in him by letting him take care of their two children. On the second occasion, he accompanied what appeared to her to be plain clothed police officers.

--YVONNE describes the third individual as follows:

Aged about 35 years
Of about 1,80 metres in height
Of normal physical appearance
Having short, dark hair
Using graduated glasses of small dimensions with rectangular lenses
Having a round face
Presenting a scar above his eyebrow and on his left cheek
Speaking with a Southern English accent
Wearing light trousers, cream or beige coloured, and a dark polo shirt.

– When she was back home, following the case on English television, she saw the same individual and this time, her initial doubt faded and she concluded that she had seen the face in the course of her professional activity in child protection, not being able to discern if he was a suspect/arguido or witness

- She clarifies that she is capable of making a photographic identification of the individual, and emphasises that with the identified photo it is possible to access the database of the British Police and ascertain whether the individual is related to any crimes involving children

Bringing this to your attention,

Signed

José Monteiro


  Yvone Martin: Witness Statement, 13 June 2007
  Yvone Martin: Witness Statement PJ Files


Processos Volume XIII
Pages 3425 - 3428

Witness Statement

Date: 2007.06.13

Time: 12H00

Name: YVONE WARREN MARTIN

Profession: Social Services and Child Protection

The witness is accompanied by a PJ interpreter, Carlos Moura, as she does not speak Portuguese.

She says that she has lived in Portugal for seven years on a part-time basis, in other words,for some months of the year she lives in her home in Sargaçal and for the rest of the year lives in England, where she still works.

During the past month of May or more precisely on the 04th of May 2007, the witness was in Portugal, enjoying holidays, when at about 07H00 she turned on the television and watched an English news channel (BBC or SKY NEWS) where she saw an appeal to British citizens on holiday in the Algarve to offer all possible support to a British couple who were on holiday in Praia da Luz and whose daughter, a child, had disappeared on May 03, 2007.

As she works directly with situations of children at risk, and as she was very close to Praia da Luz, she went there with the intention of offering her help and support to the couple, she arrived there at about 09H30.

She clarifies that she did not leave immediately for Praia da Luz as she still had some things to do at home but left at around 09H00.

At first, she could not locate the exact site where the family was staying on holiday. Upon seeing a police patrol car which passed close by her, she asked the police if they could show her the right location. She was accompanied by the patrol car to the apartment from where the child had disappeared and where the parents were staying.

At the scene, she found a group of three people, two males and one female.

She went over to the group and identified herself.

Two members of that group, a male and a female, identified themselves as the parents of the missing child—the McCann couple.

The couple were visibly upset, and the mother was crying intensely.

The third person never identified himself, upon the witness's insistence the couple replied that he was a close friend of the family.

She adds that this third person appeared familiar to her.

Taking advantage of the information that she had heard on the news, she began questioning the couple about how often they had checked on the children, obtaining the reply that people would go to see them every hour.

As is normal and routine in her service, she asked whether Gerry was the biological father of the missing child, to which he replied yes.

She clarifies that she asked this question because during the course of her 25 years of service working with children at risk, it is very normal that when a couple has child and where the father or the mother is not a biological parent, the biological parent may have a tendency to come and "get" his child.

After having obtained the verbal response from Gerry, the mother, Kate, questioned what she was doing asking these questions which should be asked by the police, who were already on the scene in large numbers searching for her daughter, who had been taken by a couple.

At this moment, the witness notices that the couple began to have doubts about her capacity and she immediately showed them her official documents and credentials issued by the British government to calm them down.

Gerry took her documents and showed them to the third person and told him that they were authentic and were certified by the police.

At this moment, the witness wishes to clarify that, in England, anyone who works with children, whether a doctor, police officer or social worker, has to have a proper credentials certified by the police and that this was one of the documents she showed to the McCanns.

Because she found it strange that Kate told her that her daughter had been taken by a couple, she tried to separate her from the other two individuals so that she could speak to her with more privacy, suggesting to Kate that they (Y and K) should enter the apartment, Kate aggressively rejected this idea and told her that they could speak on the street.

The witness then asked whether anyone from the Medical Centre had been with Kate as she was very agitated and needed some support, she was told they hadn't.

At this point, Kate told her that her daughter had disappeared 13 hours ago. It was about 10 in the morning.

Meanwhile a fourth individual came towards the group and identified himself as a journalist. The witness alerted the couple to the type of statements they should give and that it would be better for them to keep silent.

At this moment, the third person, who was always near to the couple and the witness, moved the couple away from her and the three of them talked in whispers for some time.

After this, and leaving the couple behind him, he approached the witness and told her that the couple did not want to speak any more with her, nor with anyone else.

The witness replied to him that if the McCann couple felt the need to talk to her later, she would be at their total disposal.

As she said earlier, this third person of the group is familiar to her, and thinks that she may have come across him in the course of her work, as a suspect or witness.

She describes him as tall man, height about 1,80 m, about 35 years old, of normal physical complexion, with short, dark hair, with a round face and with a scar on the left side of his face running from the eyebrow to the check. He uses graduated glasses of small dimension with rectangular lenses. He spoke with a southern English accent and was wearing cream coloured trousers and a dark polo shirt.

When asked whether that it would be possible to identify him from a photograph, the witness replied yes.

She adds that, after having spoken to the McCann couple, she spoke to the resort manager, and after identifying herself, asked him whether there had been a break-in in the apartment where the child was, to which he replied no but that the door was open as were the window blinds, which, according to Kate, should have been closed but were found open.

No more was said. Reads, ratifies, signs.


  Yvone Martin: Photographic Recognition File, 13 June 2007
  Yvone Martin: Photographic Recognition File PJ Files


Processos Volume XIII
Page 3429

Photographic Recognition File

On 13th June, 2007 at the Portimao DIC, Yvone Warren Martin appeared before me, José Monteiro, Inspector, in order to proceed with photographic recognition.

When asked, she described the suspect and she was shown photographs of various individuals who made up the McCann couple holiday group.

Upon visualising the photographs, she recognised David Anthony Payne, an individual who appeared in several photographs, as being the person she referred to in her statements and who she supposedly had known on another occasion.

The present document was drawn up and after being translated by the interpreter, will be signed.

Three signatures


  Yvone Martin: Witness Statement, 14 November 2007
  Yvone Martin: Witness Statement PJ Files


Processos Vol XIII
Pages 3430 - 3433 or pages 141-143

YVONE WARREN MARTIN

Places Worked:
1. Gateshead, Tyne & Wear
2. Southshields, Tyne & Wear
3. Newcastle, Tyne & Wear
4. York, North Yorkshire
5. Hull, Kingston Upon Hull
6. North Tyneside, Tyne & Wear
7. Plymouth, Devon

Witness Statement

Date: 2007/11/14
Time: 10H30
Place: DIC Portimao

Name: YVONE WARREN MARTIN

Profession: Social Services and Child Protection

She comes to the process as a witness and as she does not speak Portuguese she is accompanied by interpreter Filipa Maria da Conceição Silva who will translate all questions and answers into English.

The witness has given a previous statement to this police force regarding the facts in question. This took place on 13-06-2007 and led to the inquiry of the statement that was taken. The witness confirms the complete integrity of that statement, everything was fully reproduced for this file. The witness was also shown attached page showing the places of work where she carried out her professional activities as Social Services Manager for Child Protection, having also confirmed that these were the cities where she carried out her professional activities.

She states that in the course of her contact with Madeleine's parents, described in detail in her previous statements, Kate told her that the child had been taken by a couple. During the meeting they had, the details of which are contained in her previous statement, she did not have the opportunity to ask in depth about this question nor about any other.

With regards to the individual who was close to Madeleine's parents when she met them, and who was later identified as David Payne, she reaffirms that the same individual seems familiar, possibly as this same individual intervened in a situation related to a professional activity of the witness. She clarifies that neither on that occasion, nor now that time has passed, can she remember concretely the place or the situation in which she may have come to know David Payne, but that she continues to think that the same individual is familiar to her but cannot state the particular situation.

She adds that her hypothesis is that she may have come to know him professionally through work, potentially having been colleagues at work or have worked at the same place but she cannot be certain where she met him as she does not remember

She says that about two weeks after Madeleine's disappearance, when the police made an appeal for information about a man, carrying a child, who had been seen in the Luz zone, and whose clothing was described, she wrote an anonymous letter to the British police, telling them the following: regarding the various details she observed during her contact with the McCanns it is her opinion that they could be in some way involved in the disappearance of Madeleine.

She first found them aggressive and their reaction after she showed Madeleine's parents her credentials, also seemed strange to her. Afterwards she was informed that there were no signs of a break-in in the apartment. Knowing that they are doctors she found it absolutely abnormal that they left their children alone at home. Associating all of this with her professional experience, which tells her that in 99.99 % of missing children cases, the parents or other family members are involved, she felt it was her duty to inform the police of this.

She did this anonymously because she did not want to be bothered by the media. But she also states that according to what she remembers, when she met with Madeleine's parents, David Payne, who was with them, was wearing a dark polo shirt, blue or black coloured, cream coloured long trousers, of linen or cotton, and dark shoes (sandal/slipper type without a back buckle/catch). In her opinion, this clothing matches perfectly with the clothing the Police described the man (carrying the child) to be wearing at the time. All these coincidences made the witness think that the parents and their friends could possibly be involved in the disappearance of the child.

She declares that one of her main aims when she wrote the anonymous letter was for the British police to check the paedophile or child abusers registers and whether David Payne was on that list.

No more was said. Reads, ratifies, signs.


  Yvone Martin: Service Information, 14 November 2007
  Yvone Martin: Service Information PJ Files


Processos Vol XIII
Page 3421

Date : 2007 – 11 - 14

To: The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation Paolo Rebelo

From: Paolo Ferreira, Inspector

Service Information

Subject: Expedient related to Yvone Warren Martin

In the sequence of the contents of the service information in annex, which was prepared by Inspector José Monteira on 12 – 06 – 2007, the questioning of Yvone Warren Martin was twice begun, according to the files that are also joined to this.

The statement relates in detail her intervention with the McCann couple after having heard about Madeleine’s disappearance.

She adds that on one occasion, because it had occurred to her that the parents and the friends could eventually be involved in the child’s disappearance, she wrote an anonymous letter to the British police.

The statements given to the PJ today by Yvone Martin provide a concrete clarification of the reasons for her suspicions, which in my opinion, do not point to any concrete element that could, in any way, make other inquiries directly related to her statements, viable.

With nothing further to add.

Signed

Inspector Ferreira

[lookout]

 Hi Roch,yes it is interesting,but my take on David Payne is that it's a case of mistaken identity because there were 4 men at close quarters who all looked the same in appearance.
1) David Payne.
2) Robert Murat.
3) Angus Symington.? or David------Symingtons are related to the Murats.
4) Sergey Malinka.

Such an uncanny likeness,they could all be related. There are a few sites where you can see this phenomenon.
Patti and myself trawled through tons of material concerning this case not long after it had happened.

[Patti]

Hi Lookout/Roch

There is no substance in the Gaspers account of what she might have seen or thought she saw. The police have looked into that.  She was unsure of what it was they were saying or doing. I am not saying that because I am pro Macann, I am saying it because its how I view it.

Can I recommend a better site than the Mcannfiles because this site is engineered by a close friend of Amaral's....

This site is run by Pamalam and is much better.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/CopiedMessages.htm

Malinka has been ruled out Lookout....I think they are concentrating on mobile use at the time MM went missing and have linked various calls to ex burglars in that area at the time.

I doubt anything will come of their search now. Its many years too late.

David P....was asked by Gerry to go and check on Kate for they did not come back out to the play area as they normally did. The children were tired.   

[Patti]

It appears that SY are to do some more interviewing.  Also they are asking for all the forensic evidence to be re-checked.  DNA has advanced considerably since 2007.

[lookout]

 Hi Patti,I never did take the Gaspars seriously at all,as those who try and listen in on conversations invariably get the wrong end of the stick. Mrs Gaspar reminded me of AE in that respect !

Thanks for the info on any forthcoming news re.mobiles.

[Roch]

Hi Patti & Lookout.  I'm going to look in to this a bit more my self to get some context.  I may have to re-watch the videos I posted up.  I will be posting up another video today which briefly mentions the MCann case within the context of CSA/blackmailing an 'asset'.

I do feel it's quite a coincidence that:

Yvonne Martin photo ID'd Payne, regardless of there having been other similar looking male candidates present.

Payne places him-self as the last person to see Maddie alive other than her own parents.

In doing so, Payne's account of this meeting differs considerably from Kate McCann's account. (Could the meeting be an invention designed to create false time-line for Maddie, who could have actually died earlier than the time-line attached to the abduction scenario?)

Payne's interview with Leicestershire police is very stuttering.  It's littered with 'Umms'

Katherina Gaspar statement does allege an overtly sexual comment/gesture by Payne in respect of Madeleine McCann, which caused a brief awkward silence in the group present.