Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath

[Jane]

I was meaning that I disagree with you that Steve Jobs needed to prove himself and Michael Gove needs to be top dog because they were adopted.  That's a rubbish argument Maggie. 

Bill Gates - Microsoft - not adopted
Larry Page - Google - not adopted
Mark Zuckenburg - Facebook - not adopted
Steve Jobs - Apple - adopted

David Cameron - Tory pm - not adopted
George Osborn - Tory chancellor - not adopted
Boris Johnson - Tory ? -  not adopted
Michael Grove -  Tory ? - adopted

I don't see any connection with adoption.

You're doing what the family and police did being prejudiced against Jeremy because he was adopted and saying he was bad and would kill his family.

I've seen photos of June with her arms round Sheila and Jeremy.  And photos of June and Nevill being affectionate with the twins.

When I was on Jeremy's phone list he talked of a happy life before prison.

This is your post I was referring to.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3851.msg364346.html#msg364346

Jackie, people feel the need to prove themselves for diverse reasons. Off the top of my head:-

Being the eldest in the family.

Being the youngest in the family.

Being the middle child in a family.

Being made to feel responsible for the family.

Being made to feel worthless within the family.

Add to that list the burden of having being rejected by one family and adopted into another and the picture becomes clear.

[Jane]

I am not doing any such thing, I am putting forward the point of view that Jeremy could have had as much or even more anger/resentment than Sheila because adoption scars people.

I have no idea what Steve Jobs was like as a person, have you?  I don't know what his fears and insecurities were, I know when he was dying he regretted putting his whole life into climbing the greasy pole rather than putting his energy into love and relationships, which he realised are all that is important in life.   My answer to you was just a quick thought before I signed off last night. My real answer is the above...... I don't know, .... how could I?  So I would say it's an unfair question not a rubbish answer.

The argument I was using is taken from a highly admired study on adoption they are not my own personal theories.

As I have said many times, I have an open mind on the case with reservations on both sides.

As much as I can see there are possibilities of guilt on either side I also feel that June has been given a bad press in the same way that Sheila has been by some.

Having recently finished Colin's book I take on board June had a difficult and apparently controlling personality, possibly a product of her own mental illness which she had suffered from very badly at times.  However, Nevil was also lacking, he also seemed to not hand out close parental love and hugs to his children. He did not seem to worry or see any need to compensate for June's lack of ability to give warmth and love.  So, although hailed as Sheila's rock I would guess he was in some ways more supportive because he was naturally more outgoing and gregarious but the wicked June versus the fantastic Nevill arguments don't stand up for me, they both seemed to lack parenting skills imo.

All families are a mishmash of different emotions, success and failures, no one is perfect, we all have our failings, it's human nature but in a secure and loving family there is understanding and forgiveness with love as a glue which holds people together overcoming irritations, hurt and frustrations.
If the glue isn't there because of dysfunction and early emotional neglect children grow up damaged and unable to deal with their feelings. If children don't learn by example and respect from their parents that their opinions matter, that they count and are important in their own right, those children can grow up severely damaged.

Brilliant, BRILLIANT post Maggie.

[maggie]

Brilliant, BRILLIANT post Maggie.

Thank you Jane but I think I was only saying in a long winded way what you said in your far more succinct reply.
Pat on the back for both of us but doubt if Jackie and others will agree 

[lookout]

I wasn't adopted but I wasn't shown as much affection as Sheila and Jeremy were,or anyone else I knew, adopted or not,so I should have grown up to be a murderer or a rogue ?
Instead, I found my own way in life------------the hard way ( if you get my drift )

[Jane]

I wasn't adopted but I wasn't shown as much affection as Sheila and Jeremy were,or anyone else I knew, adopted or not,so I should have grown up to be a murderer or a rogue ?
Instead, I found my own way in life------------the hard way ( if you get my drift )

Just how do you measure affection, Lookout. WHATEVER children suffer, being adopted into however loving a home, is a burden. When they're adopted into homes in which expectations on them are high and way beyond their natural capabilities, the burden is exacerbated.

[maggie]

I wasn't adopted but I wasn't shown as much affection as Sheila and Jeremy were,or anyone else I knew, adopted or not,so I should have grown up to be a murderer or a rogue ?
Instead, I found my own way in life------------the hard way ( if you get my drift )

Hi, lookout. It's true many adopted people do find their way and have perfectly happy lives, I am not meaning to be offensive to adoptees but the argument is that if Sheila was damaged by rejection at birth and 'rejection' in her family and life there is no reason why Jeremy would have been immune from similar emotions. 

Sheila's bad feelings about herself possibly showed itself with her illness but it doesn't mean that because Jeremy didn't display illness that he wasn't in some way sick himself.

I am not saying he was, I have no idea what went on or goes on in JBs head but I am saying he could have had such feelings and he may still have such feelings, they may be deeply buried by now, surely it is a possibility?

[Jane]

Hi, lookout. It's true many adopted people do find their way and have perfectly happy lives, I am not meaning to be offensive to adoptees but the argument is that if Sheila was damaged by rejection at birth and 'rejection' in her family and life there is no reason why Jeremy would have been immune from similar emotions. 

Sheila's bad feelings about herself possibly showed itself with her illness but it doesn't mean that because Jeremy didn't display illness that he wasn't in some way sick himself.

I am not saying he was, I have no idea what went on or goes on in JBs head but I am saying he could have had such feelings and he may still have such feelings, they may be deeply buried by now, surely it is a possibility?

Unless he talks about those feelings, how will he know that they're not the same feelings that everyone else has. OR as Maggie says, they may be buried so deep he's unaware of them. That's where they'll have their greatest influence on him.

[lookout]

Just how do you measure affection, Lookout. WHATEVER children suffer, being adopted into however loving a home, is a burden. When they're adopted into homes in which expectations on them are high and way beyond their natural capabilities, the burden is exacerbated.

Affection isn't being called a " nuisance or a pest ",neither is being a " duffer " a term of endearment either. Nor the threat of " going in a home " very encouraging, for misbehaving.
Speaking of expectations,which there were of myself because brother was clever,it was also expected of me too but I was an entirely different character to my brother and was never given the same encouragement to do well. This is where the " duffer " came into play.
I was a " people person ",they weren't and my brother remains the same to this day,not always approachable with a tendency to be arrogant,as he always was.
Dad and I were close,but even that was wrong.
So don't be xxxx xxx about how xxxx xxxx xx you were !

[Jane]

Affection isn't being called a " nuisance or a pest ",neither is being a " duffer " a term of endearment either. Nor the threat of " going in a home " very encouraging, for misbehaving.
Speaking of expectations,which there were of myself because brother was clever,it was also expected of me too but I was an entirely different character to my brother and was never given the same encouragement to do well. This is where the " duffer " came into play.
I was a " people person ",they weren't and my brother remains the same to this day,not always approachable with a tendency to be arrogant,as he always was.
Dad and I were close,but even that was wrong.
So don't be xxxxxxx about how xxxxxxxxxx you were !

Your xxxxxxxxx in the face of something about which you know NOTHING knows no bounds. I won't pretend to know what it feels like to be a biological child in a household where it is put down, yet you have the temerity to disallow the added burden of what I experienced as an adopted child.

[lookout]

Your arrogance in the face of something about which you know NOTHING knows no bounds. I won't pretend to know what it feels like to be a biological child in a household where it is put down, yet you have the temerity to disallow the added burden of what I experienced as an adopted child.

Arrogance ? I don't know the meaning of the word in my own world. You have to be in a different world in which to display arrogance. Maybe you're getting mixed up with the word " pride ",which is a far cry from having an attitude.
I'm not disallowing you from the" privilege" of rubbing it in that you were adopted,but please--------you're not the only one and you speak of it as though it's some dreadful doom which it isn't. Where would we be without it ? At the same time,there are millions who weren't adopted but went on to have horrific lives because of their backgrounds and what you don't seem to understand is that biological children suffer Hell too. Look at the figures of mental health in the under 11's. They're not all adopted. Even as young as 5 are reporting symptoms such as anxiety,etc.
Both Sheila and Jeremy did very well during their childhood years and it was up to them,nobody else, to balance themselves out in preparation for adulthood. You can't wipe their behinds all their lives,and the same applies to any child,adopted or not,that they should have gained some understanding of what the future holds and to prepare themselves for that time.
With a solid background,it should be achieved.

Adoption should NEVER be used as an excuse in any way. I find it insulting and unnecessary. Once a child finds its own way in life,why should it be the fault of adoption if things go wrong,or don't go to plan ?
It's like druggies being blamed for crime.The excuse being,he was taking drugs,or " he was drunk and didn't know what he was doing "-------------RUBBISH !

[maggie]

Arrogance ? I don't know the meaning of the word in my own world. You have to be in a different world in which to display arrogance. Maybe you're getting mixed up with the word " pride ",which is a far cry from having an attitude.
I'm not disallowing you from the" privilege" of rubbing it in that you were adopted,but please--------you're not the only one and you speak of it as though it's some dreadful doom which it isn't. Where would we be without it ? At the same time,there are millions who weren't adopted but went on to have horrific lives because of their backgrounds and what you don't seem to understand is that biological children suffer Hell too. Look at the figures of mental health in the under 11's. They're not all adopted. Even as young as 5 are reporting symptoms such as anxiety,etc.
Both Sheila and Jeremy did very well during their childhood years and it was up to them,nobody else, to balance themselves out in preparation for adulthood. You can't wipe their behinds all their lives,and the same applies to any child,adopted or not,that they should have gained some understanding of what the future holds and to prepare themselves for that time.
With a solid background,it should be achieved.

Adoption should NEVER be used as an excuse in any way. I find it insulting and unnecessary. Once a child finds its own way in life,why should it be the fault of adoption if things go wrong,or don't go to plan ?
It's like druggies being blamed for crime.The excuse being,he was taking drugs,or " he was drunk and didn't know what he was doing "-------------RUBBISH !

Sorry lookout but I  disagree with your opinion on adoption. It is an accepted fact that the emotional wound known as the Primal Wound is  inflicted before a baby is conscious of it. This cannot be denied and it does cause difficulties and emotional pain which is often not recognised by the sufferer because how can anyone be aware of what are not normal feelings. 

It's true many people have very hard love less childhoods in natural families but babies adopted in the first two years of life and who go on to have a hard love less  childhood are disadvantaged from the start.

Children adopted over 2 years of age have different problems, many of these have conscious memories of hideous abuse and rejection and are damaged in ways which are easier to understand.

Because I quote a book about the effects of baby adoption, an area which has only recently begun to be explored, doesn't downgrade the horrors  and cruelty inflicted on natural children or the more 'acceptable, heavy handed parenting' which can be so damaging to a little child.

I actually think Jane is very brave to voice her feelings about her childhood as you have been in the past.

I am very aware that I was massively lucky in my upbringing and always appreciate that.

[Jane]

Arrogance ? I don't know the meaning of the word in my own world. You have to be in a different world in which to display arrogance. Maybe you're getting mixed up with the word " pride ",which is a far cry from having an attitude.
I'm not disallowing you from the" privilege" of rubbing it in that you were adopted,but please--------you're not the only one and you speak of it as though it's some dreadful doom which it isn't. Where would we be without it ? At the same time,there are millions who weren't adopted but went on to have horrific lives because of their backgrounds and what you don't seem to understand is that biological children suffer Hell too. Look at the figures of mental health in the under 11's. They're not all adopted. Even as young as 5 are reporting symptoms such as anxiety,etc.
Both Sheila and Jeremy did very well during their childhood years and it was up to them,nobody else, to balance themselves out in preparation for adulthood. You can't wipe their behinds all their lives,and the same applies to any child,adopted or not,that they should have gained some understanding of what the future holds and to prepare themselves for that time.
With a solid background,it should be achieved.

Adoption should NEVER be used as an excuse in any way. I find it insulting and unnecessary. Once a child finds its own way in life,why should it be the fault of adoption if things go wrong,or don't go to plan ?
It's like druggies being blamed for crime.The excuse being,he was taking drugs,or " he was drunk and didn't know what he was doing "-------------RUBBISH !

But I'm not the one who is denying or disallowing that some biological children have appalling lives. It's you who condemn me for "rubbing in" the fact of my adoption but seem to have no problem with "rubbing in" how bad was your own childhood. I FULLY recognize that bad is bad but I also recognize that having adoption in the "bad" equation is an added burden on a child who feels it doesn't measure up and has no yardstick for doing so. It is certainly NOT your place to pontificate on how well YOU perceive Sheila and Jeremy -and by default, I- did in our respective childhoods.

You insist you have empathy. You above post suggests as much as could be found in a cold rice pudding.

[lookout]

But I'm not the one who is denying or disallowing that some biological children have appalling lives. It's you who condemn me for "rubbing in" the fact of my adoption but seem to have no problem with "rubbing in" how bad was your own childhood. I FULLY recognize that bad is bad but I also recognize that having adoption in the "bad" equation is an added burden on a child who feels it doesn't measure up and has no yardstick for doing so. It is certainly NOT your place to pontificate on how well YOU perceive Sheila and Jeremy -and by default, I- did in our respective childhoods.

You insist you have empathy.




You above post suggests as much as could be found in a cold rice pudding.

------------A reflection of my childhood,perhaps ??

[lookout]

Now do you see,I'M blaming MY childhood  ? When there's really no need because you DON'T have to emulate what went on.

[David1819]

Sorry lookout but I  disagree with your opinion on adoption. It is an accepted fact that the emotional wound known as the Primal Wound is  inflicted before a baby is conscious of it. This cannot be denied and it does cause difficulties and emotional pain which is often not recognised by the sufferer because how can anyone be aware of what are not normal feelings. 

It's true many people have very hard love less childhoods in natural families but babies adopted in the first two years of life and who go on to have a hard love less  childhood are disadvantaged from the start.

Children adopted over 2 years of age have different problems, many of these have conscious memories of hideous abuse and rejection and are damaged in ways which are easier to understand.

Because I quote a book about the effects of baby adoption, an area which has only recently begun to be explored, doesn't downgrade the horrors  and cruelty inflicted on natural children or the more 'acceptable, heavy handed parenting' which can be so damaging to a little child.

I actually think Jane is very brave to voice her feelings about her childhood as you have been in the past.

I am very aware that I was massively lucky in my upbringing and always appreciate that.

The book you are talking about does not resonate with all adoptees (including myself)

The author herself is not adopted so I find it odd IMO