Jeremy Bamber: the Prelude, the Tragedy and the Aftermath

[Caroline]

I'm surprised your contributions to Harrison's book wasn't related to your degree? Instead it was about something you're not qualified in?  You know very little about me but if it makes you feel better telling me how well qualified you are please feel free...

Sheila wouldn't have spurt for the reasons I've given Jeremy didn't.

You're the one who brought up qualifications  .

My contribution to the book were observations, the kind anyone could make if they were spatially aware. Oh and if they were asked!

I don't agree with your assumptions - any ideas about those towels? 

[Steve_uk]

Any bloodied garments could have been burned in the Aga.

[Caroline]

Any bloodied garments could have been burned in the Aga.

Or taken home and washed - along with those pesky towels .

[Harry]

That's interesting Harry. Two shots made in a " downward " position. Meaning : That Neville would have been on the floor ( on his knees ?) with the shooter standing over him-------so it had to be a pretty tall person ( Sheila ) to accommodate the length of the rifle as well. Nobody argues with a shooter.!

It wouldn't be the first time that a pathologist has been in cahoots with the police ! Ian Tomlinson's case was testament to that.

I admit that I suspect something of the kind happened. The police may have asked Craig to help them suppress the fact that Sheila died later than the others, to conceal some error of judgement on their part. What he said just doesn't ring true. People with medical training can normally give an opinion on time of death even if it's only an approximation.

As for Vanezis, he did not perform his autopsy on Sheila till the day after. By that time any indications of a later time of death for Sheila such as the lack of rigor mortis, as seen from how her right arm was moved by the police would have been lost.

It's notable that Vanezis has never commented on the crime scene photographs which allegedly show Sheila died later.

As for Bamber's defence, they  were just not smart enough to get a second opinion on such issues from independent experts.

[Steve_uk]

I admit that I suspect something of the kind happened. The police may have asked Craig to help them suppress the fact that Sheila died later than the others, to conceal some error of judgement on their part. What he said just doesn't ring true. People with medical training can normally give an opinion on time of death even if it's only an approximation.

As for Vanezis, he did not perform his autopsy on Sheila till the day after. By that time any indications of a later time of death for Sheila such as the lack of rigor mortis, as seen from how her right arm was moved by the police would have been lost.

It's notable that Vanezis has never commented on the crime scene photographs which allegedly show Sheila died later.

As for Bamber's defence, they  were just not smart enough to get a second opinion on such issues from independent experts.

I think most people now recognize that Craig was out of his depth with five bodies to deal with.

[David1819]

You're the one who brought up qualifications  .

My contribution to the book were observations, the kind anyone could make if they were spatially aware. Oh and if they were asked!

I don't agree with your assumptions - any ideas about those towels?

from what I have heard about PH book  it seems your contributions to the book were the only observations in it.

[Caroline]

from what I have heard about PH book  it seems your contributions to the book were the only observations in it.

Well, you see rather than 'just take someone else's word' - proof is always in the first hand experience. I always like to SEE things for myself.

[lookout]

I admit that I suspect something of the kind happened. The police may have asked Craig to help them suppress the fact that Sheila died later than the others, to conceal some error of judgement on their part. What he said just doesn't ring true. People with medical training can normally give an opinion on time of death even if it's only an approximation.

As for Vanezis, he did not perform his autopsy on Sheila till the day after. By that time any indications of a later time of death for Sheila such as the lack of rigor mortis, as seen from how her right arm was moved by the police would have been lost.

It's notable that Vanezis has never commented on the crime scene photographs which allegedly show Sheila died later.

As for Bamber's defence, they  were just not smart enough to get a second opinion on such issues from independent experts.

JB's defence were abysmal,there's no other word for it. I'm appalled to think that they didn't even put up a " fight " between any of them as they allowed the prosecution to ride roughshod over the whole case. Their input against that of the prosecution says it all. When you have a poor defence such as this was,it tends to make me feel pretty suspicious. It was a mass murder for God's sake and a man's life was hanging in the balance.
Rivlin gave up on JM because " she was too upset to continue being questioned ".What ? I'd have thought with all his years in court that he'd have seen through this nonsense.
Was it that Rivlin himself thought that JB was guilty,or what ? After all,Rivlin had " changed his hat " from being a prosecuting judge to a defence one in this case.
Then my bone of contention that the trial was held at Chelmsford and not London ?

[Caroline]

JB's defence were abysmal,there's no other word for it. I'm appalled to think that they didn't even put up a " fight " between any of them as they allowed the prosecution to ride roughshod over the whole case. Their input against that of the prosecution says it all. When you have a poor defence such as this was,it tends to make me feel pretty suspicious. It was a mass murder for God's sake and a man's life was hanging in the balance.
Rivlin gave up on JM because " she was too upset to continue being questioned ".What ? I'd have thought with all his years in court that he'd have seen through this nonsense.
Was it that Rivlin himself thought that JB was guilty,or what ? After all,Rivlin had " changed his hat " from being a prosecuting judge to a defence one in this case.
Then my bone of contention that the trial was held at Chelmsford and not London ?

Perhaps their heart just wasn't in it because even they thought he was guilty.

[lookout]

Perhaps their heart just wasn't in it because even they thought he was guilty.

That is NOT the point. Blimey,their demands for payment should also reflect upon that which they contribute in their defence. They didn't exactly earn it.

[Steve_uk]

JB's defence were abysmal,there's no other word for it. I'm appalled to think that they didn't even put up a " fight " between any of them as they allowed the prosecution to ride roughshod over the whole case. Their input against that of the prosecution says it all. When you have a poor defence such as this was,it tends to make me feel pretty suspicious. It was a mass murder for God's sake and a man's life was hanging in the balance.
Rivlin gave up on JM because " she was too upset to continue being questioned ".What ? I'd have thought with all his years in court that he'd have seen through this nonsense.
Was it that Rivlin himself thought that JB was guilty,or what ? After all,Rivlin had " changed his hat " from being a prosecuting judge to a defence one in this case.
Then my bone of contention that the trial was held at Chelmsford and not London ?

Lookout I accept that Julie was difficult to cross-examine because of her emotional state, whether feigned or not, but what questions would you have liked Rivlin to ask that he failed to?

[Steve_uk]

That is NOT the point. Blimey,their demands for payment should also reflect upon that which they contribute in their defence. They didn't exactly earn it.

It was just one more case to them; let's face it.

[lookout]

Lookout I accept that Julie was difficult to cross-examine because of her emotional state, whether feigned or not, but what questions would you have liked Rivlin to ask that he failed to?

That if she'd known that this tragedy was going to happen,why hadn't she said something sooner.
Why did she go on holiday knowing he was a mass murderer.
Why was she even intimate with him when she knew he'd murdered two children.
Did he murder his family. An outright answer is necessary.
The list really is endless considering that she'd known well in advance what his plans were.

He couldn't have asked her what she was going to spend her £25,000 on because nobody knew !!

[JackiePreece]

You're the one who brought up qualifications  .

My contribution to the book were observations, the kind anyone could make if they were spatially aware. Oh and if they were asked!

I don't agree with your assumptions - any ideas about those towels?

No you facetiously said "Sorry Jackie when did you qualify in forensic science"?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,3851.msg364177.html#msg364177

Whatever I talk about whether it's my connections, friendship with Jeremy, my two horses, Hillsborough or the case you attack me.  When NGB is next on I'm going to pm him about this.

[JackiePreece]

I admit that I suspect something of the kind happened. The police may have asked Craig to help them suppress the fact that Sheila died later than the others, to conceal some error of judgement on their part. What he said just doesn't ring true. People with medical training can normally give an opinion on time of death even if it's only an approximation.

As for Vanezis, he did not perform his autopsy on Sheila till the day after. By that time any indications of a later time of death for Sheila such as the lack of rigor mortis, as seen from how her right arm was moved by the police would have been lost.

It's notable that Vanezis has never commented on the crime scene photographs which allegedly show Sheila died later.

As for Bamber's defence, they  were just not smart enough to get a second opinion on such issues from independent experts.

Why would Dr Craig agree to cover anything up and support the defence at trial?  He didn't have to say Sheilas appearance suggested to him she took her own life.  He could have said he wasn't qualified to comment and take the middle ground.  Or side with the prosecution if as you're suggesting he covered up for someone.

Are you related to Mike by any chance?