Sept - JB in WHF

[Kaldin]

Perhaps JB's team are worried by Kaldin and other's dismantling of the phone 'theories'.

If someone on a forum can dismantle such theories, so can a judge with many years experience. I'm not saying that if Nevill didn't phone the police that means that Jeremy is guilty, but if he relies too much on things like the alleged call from Nevill to the police, an appeal could fail again. There were many points in the 2002 appeal and perhaps they all seemed like winners to his defence team at the time, but the appeal judges just weren't buying any of them.

[Reader]

I thought they docs he needed to go abroad (on his holiday).

According to the 2002 appeal judgement, Jeremy stated "After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window." There's no mention of how he opened that window.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

We know Jeremy broke and entered back into the house for 'papers'.

By most people's standards, having been released on bail, this was a foolish act.

Police believe it was his last attempt to cover up some tracks, since he knew he was now a suspect.
Tracks such as leverage marks at the window (which if he had broken in AFTER the murders, he could plausibly explain).

Regarding the silencer, there's a lot of ways to go on that score...

IF he did it, he could have taken the silencer with him - but, if he was caught with it, it would look bad. If it was noticed missing - that would look bad. If ballistics showed a silencer was used, and it never turned up - it looks REALLY bad and suicide definitely didn't happen.

If the silencer is found at the house, then great this works for Jeremy, but not when it's in the cupboard.
IF the silencer was next to Sheila's body, that looks pretty good... Sheila uses the silencer, then removes it to kill herself (making it easier to reach under her chin).

If the silencer is found in the cupboard, this looks bad for Bamber, as it seems less likely Sheila would have put it away as part of the suicide.
One possible explanation is that he didn't want it to be discovered missing - so makes sense to leave in the house.
He didn't want to even look like it had been used - so makes sense to put it back in the cupboard (but would have to be sure it was clean OR hope nobody would examine it, since the scene looked like a suicide anyway, and there was lots of gun stuff around).
The down side to this theory though is that he had to place ultimate faith in forensics NOT being able to know a silencer was ever used. As soon as they know that, they'd look for it.
In the end, forensics didn't know a silencer was used, and when they considered the possibility that it had been, they still couldn't prove any bullet went through it.
So did Jeremy do a bad job of cleaning it? Could he have known that backspatter might put blood inside the relatively narrow end of the silencer?
Or was he just a 25 year old who thought he could beat the system - and lost.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

I must revise that...

we don't know he 'broke' - a window MAY have been opened already - however unlikely.

(unless we can find evidence to the contrary).

I think I may have seen him admit he used the blade, but I'm really not sure of this at all, that could be the police's assumption entirely.

Either way, he wasn't thinking straight in doing that.

The only other reason I can think of him doing it is that he didn't want anybody to know he was going away / or where. Still, lousy judgment on his part. Just goes to show - he wasn't all that clear headed (or he was in a bit of a panic that they'd go back to the house and start looking at the murder angle in more detail)

[Hartley]

The summary of the appellants evidence at trial states:

The appellant claimed to have returned to the farmhouse within a day or two of his release from the Police Station, i.e. a day or two from the 13 September, and gained entry via the downstairs bathroom window. He said he had done this because he had left his keys in London and needed some documents for his trip to the South of France. The appellant did not accept that that had been an unwise thing to do bearing in mind the circumstances nor that it would have been easy for him to have borrowed keys from the housekeeper who lived nearby.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

The summary of the appellants evidence at trial states:

The appellant claimed to have returned to the farmhouse within a day or two of his release from the Police Station, i.e. a day or two from the 13 September, and gained entry via the downstairs bathroom window. He said he had done this because he had left his keys in London and needed some documents for his trip to the South of France. The appellant did not accept that that had been an unwise thing to do bearing in mind the circumstances nor that it would have been easy for him to have borrowed keys from the housekeeper who lived nearby.

This bit about 'refusing to accept it was unwise' (in my mind) only serves to enhance the notion that we thought himself untouchable.

What harm would there be in him saying "yes, looking back, it was a bit silly, but I wasn't thinking straight". To claim it wasn't unwise just seems either stupid, or intolerably arrogant.

[Hartley]

This bit about 'refusing to accept it was unwise' (in my mind) only serves to enhance the notion that we thought himself untouchable.

What harm would there be in him saying "yes, looking back, it was a bit silly, but I wasn't thinking straight". To claim it wasn't unwise just seems either stupid, or intolerably arrogant.

If he did break in (and we only have JB's word that he did) then I suppose that he wouldn't want to be seen to acknowledge that he was really in the frame, complete and utter denial, which still stands to this day. I think arrogance is part of his character, not that that makes him guilty of course.

It's also a possibility that he only broke in on the 7th August and has lied about breaking in on the 13th-14th Sept, in order to explain the hacksaw blade and any other possible evidence that he entered that window at one time or another.

[Alex]

Personally I would sooner have broken  in if it were easy to do than ask the housekeeper - who think I murdered my family - for keys.  Doesn't anyone else think that?

Also, my understanding is that JB was quite immature even for a 24 year old man.

[Hartley]

Personally I would sooner have broken  in if it were easy to do than ask the housekeeper - who think I murdered my family - for keys.  Doesn't anyone else think that?

Also, my understanding is that JB was quite immature even for a 24 year old man.

I don't know, I think you could view it either way, I'm not sure I'd want to go into the house so soon after those events regardless of entry method.

I'd like to know what these documents were that he need so badly.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Personally I would sooner have broken  in if it were easy to do than ask the housekeeper - who think I murdered my family - for keys.  Doesn't anyone else think that?

Also, my understanding is that JB was quite immature even for a 24 year old man.

I don't think most people being questioned about murder would start breaking into the murder scene. At best it will do nothing, at worst, make you look guilty, but it's never going to make you look any more innocent.

It would not surprise me if SOME aspects of Jeremy's personality where childish or at least naive. He had his own home paid for by his parents - decent car, access to money etc etc, so perhaps not 'street wise' in some aspects, but far more wise in others... he'd spent a couple of years abroad!
Different lifestyle than the majority of people, but certainly not VERY unusual. Perhaps a bit 'posh' in most people's eyes.

He was about to hop off to the South of France, so I think it's fair to say he wasn't without money or wherewithal. It's hard to see how he could fail to appreciate getting back into the house, esp via this technique, and being on bail after being questioned for murder.... MIGHT be seen as a tad suspect.

[Alex]

Yes, TBM, though if you're innocent (I think it's agreed he was arrogant) then why worry about what the police think?  At that point he wouldn't have been getting advice about how to behave so as not make a jury think he was guilty because of the way he was behaving.  The police wouldn't charge him with murder just because he broke into the farm.  I mean, breaking into the farm seems to me to be in keeping with his character up to that point.

Having said what I said earlier, I could also see myself finding an excuse to break in to the farm to cover my tracks in the way it's been suggested that JB did.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Yes, TBM, though if you're innocent (I think it's agreed he was arrogant) then why worry about what the police think?  At that point he wouldn't have been getting advice about how to behave so as not make a jury think he was guilty because of the way he was behaving.  The police wouldn't charge him with murder just because he broke into the farm.  I mean, breaking into the farm seems to me to be in keeping with his character up to that point.

Having said what I said earlier, I could also see myself finding an excuse to break in to the farm to cover my tracks in the way it's been suggested that JB did.

I can only speak for myself, but if I was innocent, and I'd just spent 2 days with the police being questioned about murdering them.... I'd be in a right state. Possibly MORE so if I was innocent.
I may well be breaking back into the house for a clean pair of underpants than a little jaunt to the SoF.

At the very least, I'd be a bit concerned that my GF's just told the police I was involved.
(it's not entirely clear how much of what had been alleged was told to him), he quite possibly didn't know the hitman had been questioned along side him, or that information came from Mugford).

[Kaldin]

Yes, TBM, though if you're innocent (I think it's agreed he was arrogant) then why worry about what the police think?  At that point he wouldn't have been getting advice about how to behave so as not make a jury think he was guilty because of the way he was behaving.  The police wouldn't charge him with murder just because he broke into the farm.  I mean, breaking into the farm seems to me to be in keeping with his character up to that point.

Having said what I said earlier, I could also see myself finding an excuse to break in to the farm to cover my tracks in the way it's been suggested that JB did.

I can only speak for myself, but if I was innocent, and I'd just spent 2 days with the police being questioned about murdering them.... I'd be in a right state. Possibly MORE so if I was innocent.
I may well be breaking back into the house for a clean pair of underpants than a little jaunt to the SoF.

At the very least, I'd be a bit concerned that my GF's just told the police I was involved.
(it's not entirely clear how much of what had been alleged was told to him), he quite possibly didn't know the hitman had been questioned along side him, or that information came from Mugford).

Exactly. So what did Jeremy do? He went on holiday instead of trying to sort out why his ex had told the police he organised a mass murder. I don't get that at all.

Surely the police must have told him the information came from Julie.

[Alex]

Yes, TBM, though if you're innocent (I think it's agreed he was arrogant) then why worry about what the police think?  At that point he wouldn't have been getting advice about how to behave so as not make a jury think he was guilty because of the way he was behaving.  The police wouldn't charge him with murder just because he broke into the farm.  I mean, breaking into the farm seems to me to be in keeping with his character up to that point.

Having said what I said earlier, I could also see myself finding an excuse to break in to the farm to cover my tracks in the way it's been suggested that JB did.

I can only speak for myself, but if I was innocent, and I'd just spent 2 days with the police being questioned about murdering them.... I'd be in a right state. Possibly MORE so if I was innocent.
I may well be breaking back into the house for a clean pair of underpants than a little jaunt to the SoF.

At the very least, I'd be a bit concerned that my GF's just told the police I was involved.
(it's not entirely clear how much of what had been alleged was told to him), he quite possibly didn't know the hitman had been questioned along side him, or that information came from Mugford).

Exactly. So what did Jeremy do? He went on holiday instead of trying to sort out why his ex had told the police he organised a mass murder. I don't get that at all.

Surely the police must have told him the information came from Julie.

Does anyone remember at one point JB says he did try to see if he could speak to Julie?  I remember reading he said it was too late, that she had gone into hiding, but I don't remember the context in which I read this or any detail, really.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Yes, TBM, though if you're innocent (I think it's agreed he was arrogant) then why worry about what the police think?  At that point he wouldn't have been getting advice about how to behave so as not make a jury think he was guilty because of the way he was behaving.  The police wouldn't charge him with murder just because he broke into the farm.  I mean, breaking into the farm seems to me to be in keeping with his character up to that point.

Having said what I said earlier, I could also see myself finding an excuse to break in to the farm to cover my tracks in the way it's been suggested that JB did.

I can only speak for myself, but if I was innocent, and I'd just spent 2 days with the police being questioned about murdering them.... I'd be in a right state. Possibly MORE so if I was innocent.
I may well be breaking back into the house for a clean pair of underpants than a little jaunt to the SoF.

At the very least, I'd be a bit concerned that my GF's just told the police I was involved.
(it's not entirely clear how much of what had been alleged was told to him), he quite possibly didn't know the hitman had been questioned along side him, or that information came from Mugford).

Exactly. So what did Jeremy do? He went on holiday instead of trying to sort out why his ex had told the police he organised a mass murder. I don't get that at all.

Surely the police must have told him the information came from Julie.

I have no idea what they told him, but it's perfectly possible they didn't tell him. Not even that they had the other guy in too... why tell him anything he doesn't need to know?
The only reason they should be giving him info at that stage are to gauge reaction, or lead him down a certain avenue. Certainly they should have kept what they'd been told to the bare minimum (and the same for the source) (IMO)

Two days worth of questioning though... that's heavy going. He must have known then it wasn't a casual chat with them. They were quite serious about him MAYBE being involved.

They'd certainly want those two days to get ALL they could out of him without him consulting Mugford. And, I suspect once bail had been granted, Mugford had to be isolated from him, possibly for her own safety, and also to prevent intimidation, or collusion.