Lack of ammunition-handling evidence on Sheila's hands

[mike tesko]

As if Bamber would be involved in two struggles that scratched the mantle.  That's what we'll hear next, if the RC1 sample is substantiated as being linked to the barrel.  One struggle with the barrel and one with the silencer (just for good measure).

You are onto it...

Marks on mantle were made at two different times. Firstly, a mark or marks made by the barrel of a gun at the time Ralph  Bamber was attacked, that caused paint sample RC/1 to be taken, and secondly, once the aga surround was deliberately scratched on or after 11th September, a futher paint sample (RWC/1) was taken which Cook and some of the other conspirators later claimed he took from the scene on 14th August - details which Cook squeezed into his pocketbook...

[Nuala]

As if Bamber would be involved in two struggles that scratched the mantle.  That's what we'll hear next, if the RC1 sample is substantiated as being linked to the barrel.  One struggle with the barrel and one with the silencer (just for good measure).

Well put, Rocky!

[Bridget]

If you read pages 48 through to 59 of Davison's COLP interview he is asked firstly would he have recorded the handing over of the paint sample in his pocket book, to which he answered that he wouldn't if he was using CID6's. Later he is asked specifically whether or not he had recorded the handover in his pocket book and he says no.

His assertions that the paint sample was handed to him at the scene, and that it was taken because of paint being found on the barrel of a gun found downstairs do, of course, create further questions, but he's speaking from memory 6 years later. It might help if we looked at Davison's statement from 1985, is it here?

There were two CID6 forms, CID6.10 and CID6.11. CID6.10 was dated 08/08/85 and Davison thought that CID6.11 was a continuation of CID6.10. When he filled in his HOLAB form with the date 08/08/85 he took it from the top of CID6.10. It was pointed out to him during his COLP interview that on CID6.11, above the entry for the paint sample were seven items listed as having been found on 09/08/85. He could not tell from the CID6's and could not remember what actual date the paint sample was taken.

[mike tesko]

According to the handwritten notes made by Ann Eaton, on 14th August 1985 when she opened up whf for the police, she recorded that police told her to keep quiet and say nothing about what they had been doing around the aga on that occasion? It now seems what the police were doing on that occasion was not taking a paint sample (RWC/1) but checking the position of the paint on the end of the guns barrel, to see if its position and occasion fitted with a mark on the underside of the mantelshelf...

As it turned out - it did...

At this time, police were satisfied that there had been no silencer fitted to the guns barrel when Ralph was attacked in the kitchen, otherwise the mark on the underside of the mantle would not have corresponded in position with the paint on the end of the rifles barrel - for example, if a silencer had been fitted the paint could not have got onto the end of the guns barrel, because the position where the paint was found would have been extended beyond the depth of the mantelshelf and got no paint upon it at all...

I now know the identity of the said rifle with paint on the end of its barrel...

[mike tesko]

According to the handwritten notes made by Ann Eaton, on 14th August 1985 when she opened up whf for the police, she recorded that police told her to keep quiet and say nothing about what they had been doing around the aga on that occasion? It now seems what the police were doing on that occasion was not taking a paint sample (RWC/1) but checking the position of the paint on the end of the guns barrel, to see if its position and occasion fitted with a mark on the underside of the mantelshelf...

As it turned out - it did...

At this time, police were satisfied that there had been no silencer fitted to the guns barrel when Ralph was attacked in the kitchen, otherwise the mark on the underside of the mantle would not have corresponded in position with the paint on the end of the rifles barrel - for example, if a silencer had been fitted the paint could not have got onto the end of the guns barrel, because the position where the paint was found would have been extended beyond the depth of the mantelshelf and got no paint upon it at all...

I now know the identity of the said rifle with paint on the end of its barrel...

This is very interesting for a number of different reasons...

For example - the distance from the end of the rifles barrel where the paint was found can be measured and this distance was found to exactly match the distance between the angle of mantke and aga surround and the position where the mark in question was found. This proved to Essex police on 14th August 1985, that there had been no9 silencer fitted to the guns barrel at the time the mark in question had been made, and that the police were more than satisfied that no silencer had been fitted to the guns barrel at the time Ralph Bamber was attacked...

[mike tesko]

Lets also put the cat amongst the pigeons, since there was no lad deposit found on the rifles barrel, or the silencer come to think of it...

More importantly, there was no lead deposit found on any of the bullets fired during the shootings...

[mike tesko]

Lets also put the cat amongst the pigeons, since there was no lad deposit found on the rifles barrel, or the silencer come to think of it...

More importantly, there was no lead deposit found on any of the bullets fired during the shootings...

Bearing this in mind...

Why the big deal over there being found no lead deposit on hand swabs taken from Sheila?

[Bridget]

Bearing this in mind...

Why the big deal over there being found no lead deposit on hand swabs taken from Sheila?

Where is the record of the rifle, silencer and bullets being tested for lead deposits? Why would you test a fired bullet for lead deposits?

[mike tesko]

Bearing this in mind...

Why the big deal over there being found no lead deposit on hand swabs taken from Sheila?

From an evidential point of view, a failure to establish levels of lead deposit present on the actual bullets, renders any results taken from examination of hand swabs that profess not to show high levels of lead deposit, since it has to be established that significantly high lead deposit levels would be obtained through handling the same. If you fail to show what levels of lead deposit we are talking about, you cannot them rely on any results obtained from examination of hand swabs taken from Sheila to suggest that the low levels of lead deposit suggest that she hadn't handled any bullets at all...

[Bridget]

From an evidential point of view, a failure to establish levels of lead deposit present on the actual bullets, renders any results taken from examination of hand swabs that profess not to show high levels of lead deposit, since it has to be established that significantly high lead deposit levels would be obtained through handling the same. If you fail to show what levels of lead deposit we are talking about, you cannot them rely on any results obtained from examination of hand swabs taken from Sheila to suggest that the low levels of lead deposit suggest that she hadn't handled any bullets at all...

The bullets are made of lead.

[mike tesko]

Where is the record of the rifle, silencer and bullets being tested for lead deposits? Why would you test a fired bullet for lead deposits?

There has to be a standard, against which test results can be measured, it is not acceptable to simply say where is / are the tests carried out on them. The fact is there is no standard, so you cannot compare any results obtained from examination of hand swabs taken from Sheila or anybody, against absolutely nothing is to  be frank, unthinkable. What kind of a criminal justice system allows evidence of this doubtful nature to be relied upon to help convict someone of serious crimes as these?

[mike tesko]

The bullets are made of lead.

Very observant - but what if they are coated in wax, under such circumstances it would n't matter what the bullets were made of, because the wax masks it, does it not??

[guest154]

It depends on the components in the wax as to what residue could be detected. There is a very good chance the wax coating would have stopped a lead reading, absolutely. But most bullets don't have waxed tips.

Could go either way.

[Bridget]

There has to be a standard, against which test results can be measured, it is not acceptable to simply say where is / are the tests carried out on them. The fact is there is no standard, so you cannot compare any results obtained from examination of hand swabs taken from Sheila or anybody, against absolutely nothing is to  be frank, unthinkable. What kind of a criminal justice system allows evidence of this doubtful nature to be relied upon to help convict someone of serious crimes as these?

Without seeing Elliot's report in full you cannot know that the tests they did did not establish a standard. n fact, in the appeal decision it is implied that that is exactly what they did, but the details of how they did are scant.

[mike tesko]

It depends on the components in the wax as to what residue could be detected. There is a very good chance the wax coating would have stopped a lead reading, absolutely. But most bullets don't have waxed tips.

Could go either way.

Which is sufficient to render the results obtained as doubtful, or unreliable, in the absence of any other supporting evidence...