Lack of ammunition-handling evidence on Sheila's hands

[mike tesko]

And what "five individual magaziness"? This is what Elliot is reported to have said:

He further reported that tests had been carried out on two members of the laboratory staff who had loaded eighteen cartridges, similar to those used to shoot those who died at White House Farm, into the magazine of the rifle, and "significantly higher levels of lead" had been detected.

The two ammunition magazines mentioned in your post could have already been contaminated with lead deposit before the volunteers loaded similar bullets to the ones used in the shootings. Furthermore, the volunteers handled and loaded up 18 bullets, whereas in Sheila's case she may only have had to directly handle 14 to reload the gun if only one gun was used. The 4 additional bullets handled by the volunteers and the possibility that the ammunition magazines had already been contaminated by previous use could easily account for the differences in the results from Sheila, and the volunteers

[mike tesko]

The two ammunition magazines mentioned in your post could have already been contaminated with lead deposit before the volunteers loaded similar bullets to the ones used in the shootings. Furthermore, the volunteers handled and loaded up 18 bullets, whereas in Sheila's case she may only have had to directly handle 14 to reload the gun if only one gun was used. The 4 additional bullets handled by the volunteers and the possibility that the ammunition magazines had already been contaminated by previous use could easily account for the differences in the results from Sheila, and the volunteers

This is why only the original bullets, batch of bullets and the original ammunition magazine should have been used, otherwise it becomes impossible to gauge accurately the levels of lead deposit found in one sample, as opposed to the other? For this reason, the results from these tests should have not been admitted...
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[Bridget]

This is why only the original bullets, batch of bullets and the original ammunition magazine should have been used, otherwise it becomes impossible to gauge accurately the levels of lead deposit found in one sample, as opposed to the other? For this reason, the results from these tests should have not been admitted...
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My reading of what Elliot said is that they did use the original magazine. He says "into the magazine of the rifle". What makes you think it was some other magazine or magazines?

[lookout]

Mike,,,has it ever been mentioned that two rifles were in use.?

[bloggs and son]

It's clear we are not going to agree on the similar ammunition issue which is why I highlighted only the first sentance of your post and just addressed that. You have not explained how either you or Mike would know the details of how the tests were conducted without seeing the reports. If you don't want to that's fine, I won't push you.

I don't need to know how the tests were carried out. I was going by what you yourself said about the tests. That they used "similar" ammunition. That in itself suggests that you must know something about the tests? It was your own words that I was questioning. So I can't see any room for disagreement Bridget as all I have done is highlight your own word "similar" to prove that they didn't use the same original batch of ammunition. So the question should really be addressed to you yourself of how you know the details of the test and not to mike surely? Or are we talking at cross purposes? 

[Bridget]

I don't need to know how the tests were carried out. I was going by what you yourself said about the tests. That they used "similar" ammunition. That in itself suggests that you must know something about the tests? It was your own words that I was questioning. So I can't see any room for disagreement Bridget as all I have done is highlight your own word "similar" to prove that they didn't use the same original batch of ammunition. So the question should really be addressed to you yourself of how you know the details of the test and not to mike surely? Or are we talking at cross purposes? 

Yes, if you read back I'm talking about the magazine(s) and you're talking about ammunition.

[mike tesko]

My reading of what Elliot said is that they did use the original magazine. He says "into the magazine of the rifle". What makes you think it was some other magazine or magazines?

The volunteers make no mention of an exhibit referene for the ammunition magazines they used in the tests...

Furthermore, there is no official confirmation that the ammunition magazine from rifle  DRH/15 was made available to the volunteers to conduct such tests...

[bloggs and son]

Yes, if you read back I'm talking about the magazine(s) and you're talking about ammunition.

Ah right. Mike brought up as to whether the magazines were sterile and you were talking about the ammunition. Ok well yes I agree we don't know about the magazines but I would assume that they said they were sterile and perhaps the ammunition as well? But it still leaves aq big question mark over the fact that they only used "similar" ammunition and not the "actual" ammunition?

[Bridget]

I right. Mike brought up as to whether the magazines were sterile and you were talking about the ammunition. Ok well yes I agree we don't know about the magazines but I would assume that they said they were sterile and perhaps the ammunition as well? But it still leaves aq big question mark over the fact that they only used "similar" ammunition and not the "actual" ammunition?

Finally we agree - sort of 

[Bridget]

The volunteers make no mention of an exhibit referene for the ammunition magazines they used in the tests...

Furthermore, there is no official confirmation that the ammunition magazine from rifle  DRH/15 was made available to the volunteers to conduct such tests...

It'll all be in the reports / statements / transcripts, do you have them?

[bloggs and son]

Finally we agree - sort of 

We'll split the difference, magunition.

[mike tesko]

I right. Mike brought up as to whether the magazines were sterile and you were talking about the ammunition. Ok well yes I agree we don't know about the magazines but I would assume that they said they were sterile and perhaps the ammunition as well? But it still leaves aq big question mark over the fact that they only used "similar" ammunition and not the "actual" ammunition?

All of which was available to them, but for one reason or another they chose not to use in the tests carried out by these volunteers. In addition, I cannot for the life of me begin to imagine why these volunteers would be given access to the original ammunition magazine, considering that Sheila's bloodstained hand was photographed resting upon it.

Furthermore, imagine if she had handled the necessary bullets to ebable her to have fired all 25 shots, what you then have is the potential for the upper facing side of the ammunition magazine to be contaminated with lead deposit from Sheila's right hand resting upon it? In such circumstances you would not hand this to volunteers to handle in case it needed to be scientifically examed to establish a possible transfer of lead deposit from Sheila's hand onto it? You would not in those circumstances give two vollunnteers access to the original ammunition magazine so that they could carry oout tests becayse by so doing you sould be exposing the mgazine to the posibility of further unnecessary contami ation from the use of similar ammunition used by these volunteers?

[mike tesko]

DC Hammersley also placed plastic bags on Sheila's hands, yet for some reason these were not tested for presence or otherwise of lead deposit?

[Bridget]

We'll split the difference, magunition.

At this rate we're going to have our own language..

[mike tesko]

DC Hammersley also placed plastic bags on Sheila's hands, yet for some reason these were not tested for presence or otherwise of lead deposit?

Continuing on with this theme, police also took Sheila's fingerprints, and these would include a possible transfer of lead deposits when the fingerprints were taken? So they used similar bullets to carry out these tests and relied on the results obtained. When all along there were the original bullets, the original batch of bullets, the original ammunition magazine upon which was photographed Sheila's bloodied hand, and the fingerprint forms which were all in existence and available, yet ignored for one reason or another...