'So and so, said so...' - thread

[SIMONJONES]

Good evening,

Late Christmas greetings to all.

Am I alone in finding Mike's 'So and so' thread a very long haul?

I am taking from this thread that this is Mike's definitive account of how Shelia Caffell was shot ( not once ), but twice by Essex Police.

It would certainly help me ( I can't speak for other readers ) if the entire thread could be captured in just a few hundred words and the key moments listed - names / times etc.

Dare I call it 'bullet point' style of text.

Did a photograph ever exist that gave the impression ( from a certain angle ) that only a single bullet wound could be seen on Mrs Caffell?

I'm not sure about that, but surely if it did, anyone who had access to it would be doing Jeremy Bamber no favours by keeping it hidden all these years.

I'm in touch with several main players on this case ( many of whom will be known by forum members )and it has to be said ( and these people are on either side of the fence ) that none of them ever considered the possiblity that the police were responsible for either shot into Caffell.

[Patti]

Good evening,

Late Christmas greetings to all.

Am I alone in finding Mike's 'So and so' thread a very long haul?

I am taking from this thread that this is Mike's definitive account of how Shelia Caffell was shot ( not once ), but twice by Essex Police.

It would certainly help me ( I can't speak for other readers ) if the entire thread could be captured in just a few hundred words and the key moments listed - names / times etc.

Dare I call it 'bullet point' style of text.

Did a photograph ever exist that gave the impression ( from a certain angle ) that only a single bullet wound could be seen on Mrs Caffell?

I'm not sure about that, but surely if it did, anyone who had access to it would be doing Jeremy Bamber no favours by keeping it hidden all these years.

I'm in touch with several main players on this case ( many of whom will be known by forum members )and it has to be said ( and these people are on either side of the fence ) that none of them ever considered the possiblity that the police were responsible for either shot into Caffell.

Hi Simon

I go with what I have read in the raid team statements and, it is documented just after 7:30 that there were two wounds.

Personally, I don't think that the police shot Sheila, but on saying that there is a possibility, but I feel it is unlikely.   Neither do I think she was shot downstairs, the evidence does not support this.  However, I do believe it likely that she might have been downstairs at some point.   

[SIMONJONES]

Only fair to say that those I am in contact with ( on-going, and not just the Bamber case ) include Eric Allison, Andrew Hunter, Scott Lomax, Essex Police, CCRC and local & national press & media - also only fair to say that I am currently using the AKA SJ ( I'm sure the guys who run this site will be familiar with who I am).

I'm certainly not Bob Woofinden, I'm sure when he's running low on fees he'll write a new scenario that he believes Jeremy Bamber is innocent again.

He may even copy and paste 'So and so etc' - but if he does, I hope he edits it down.

It may well be that he got the ( Daily Mail piece ) telephone information from Essex Police, if you can call it information, it was just a theory they had at the time and still do, to this day.

I'm fairly sure many posters on this forum will have tried to visualise the shot sequence within WHF.

We tried to imagine how Shelia could possibly have carried this out, and we just couldn't see it.

But equally, we were pretty hard pushed to see how Jeremy Bamber could have carried it out - it was very high risk to fabricate murder / suicide.

It is also incredible that he was not seen going in either direction ( if there were two directions ).

Perhaps, if Jeremy Bamber hadn't phoned the police he may have got a 10-2 to a 9-3 and walked away a free man.

The phone calls were decisive in the eventually ( knife-edge ) verdict.

As far as Simon McKay goes, I'm sorry to say that I don't expect him to make any impact with this case ( and that certainly goes for the guys in Birmingham ).

[Steve_uk]

I like a good yarn,whether fictional or not. Let Mike tell the story in his own way. I found it one of his better threads,just it's a pity it's a locked thread.

[susan]

Morning SimonJones  I am trying to decide if you are pro,anti or don't know with regard to Jeremy Bamber. The remark if there was two directions interests me.  Would you care to elaborate. Thanks.

[tyler]

Morning SimonJones  I am trying to decide if you are pro,anti or don't know with regard to Jeremy Bamber. The remark if there was two directions interests me.  Would you care to elaborate. Thanks.

Morning Susan,Hope you had a lovely Christmas Day!
SJ's remark - if there was two directions - is something I have considered many times.Although Jeremy's car was heard to leave the farm that night,nobody actually saw JB.His car was witnessed as being outside the cottage that night,but again,nobody actually saw JB.Someone else could have taken his car home for him? If Jeremy did not actually return home to Goldhanger that evening,then it would have been much easier to have carried out the kilings.No creeping into the house,therefore no dogs barking.Knowing when everyone would be asleep before he attacked etc.
SJ's post is interesting in the fact that he/she sees problems with either Sheila OR Jeremy as being the killer,as with many of us,there is an element of doubt either way.And for me,personally,there lies the problem..........if there is reasonable doubt,then Jeremy should not be where he is today imo.

[campion]

  Morning Susan & SIMONJONES,
  Last night I did an early Boswell('and so to bed'), prior to this illuminating, and intriguing thread being started.
  Thus far, I have read only 2 pages of MT's, Sew and sew's said('Z') Fred Thread. It was sufficient for me to rethink the 'wilderness of mirrors'.
  Lugg, please kindly RMN&ID, consequent on what you have intimated on one of our behalf's!!!!
  My revised concept is based on AE's oft-quoted remark -'Why is Jeremy still alive?'. It is also based on the discovery of the dual identity of the Det Ch Superintendent ' George Harris', who was 'phoned at home? at 4.10 am, to be put I.C. of The WHF Operation, until such time as it was handed over to Witham CID. As we are aware this first investigation was in the capable hands of ace DCI Taff Jones, until his enforced gardening/golfing leave, and subsequent sad demise.
  I have looked up 'asaSJ' on twitter, and find the Chinese dialect script harder to decipher than J apanese Arithmetic!
  Tyler(thankyou) is partly to blame for my new 'scenario' of the Case.
  KISSusan, I think 'each direction' simply indicates- hither and thither, sans Zither!!
  Thank goodness MT has implemented his 'locked thread' facility.

[susan]

Morning tyler  hope you had a good day with your family yesterday.  I have problems trying to decide who I think was the killer at WHF.  My biggest problem is getting Jeremy to and from the farm wet suits bikes etc do not come into my theories' If Jeremy did not return to his home that night where was he and how did he get back after the murders.  I don' think a third party was involved  He was able to give the police a detailed account of what he watched on TV and they checked he had not pre recorded it.

[susan]

Morning Campy  hope you had a nice Christmas day.  I don't think the two directions meant hither or thither but don't agree with it whatever it means as far as the rest of your post is concerned I will need time to reflect on your words and decide what they mean

[campion]

  Susie and Tyler, May we consider that JB parked his car at Bourtree, and then walked the few yards to the Chequers, after a long, dry and toilsome  harvest day on the farm.
  The landlord, Roger Smith, now retired to Southend, is quoted as saying - 'he could not understand how JB could have done the murders.

[susan]

Hi Camps  Would not have thought the local pub was Jeremy's scene maybe I have that wrong along with most things

[SIMONJONES]

Morning SimonJones  I am trying to decide if you are pro,anti or don't know with regard to Jeremy Bamber. The remark if there was two directions interests me.  Would you care to elaborate. Thanks.

Susan, I started off with an open mind on this case a few years ago.

When it originally happened in '85 I just followed the news as it evolved, first thinking that a series of murders had been commited by a deranged Shelia Caffell followed by her suicide.

When Jeremy Bamber came into the equation and was eventually found guilty I just accepted it.

Around 2008 I started to look into the case. At first I tended to have doubts that Jeremy Bamber was guilty. As time moved on I was introduced to someone whose former husband had lived in a house share with Matthew McDonald in 1985. Some extraordinary information was passed on to me that seemed to support the 'hit man' scenario.

It's taken several years to conclude that ( certainly with the help of retired members of Essex Police ) neither a hit man, nor Shelia Caffell could have carried out the killings, and this only leaves Jeremy Bamber in the frame.

Jeremy had been employed by someone I knew at Sloppy Joe's in Colchester and it became apparent that both he and Julie Mugford had been involved in crime that was never reported to the police. The only potential 'conspiracy' that I could imagine may have centred on a joint pact of murder by Bamber & Mugford. ( my friend employed Julie too ).

I do not believe that Essex Police or extended family 'framed' Jeremy Bamber for murder.

I wonder all these years on if Jeremy Bamber ever came to terms with being given away by his birth parents and then sent to boarding school by his adoptive parents.

Jeremy Bamber would appear to have been insane at the time of the murders and in the weeks following. I believe his true state of mind was far more serious than that of his 'sister', or indeed his 'mother'. In essence, Jeremy Bamber never had a family - so in his mind, he couldn't have murdered them.

To conclude, I'm afraid to say that I think Jeremy Bamber did kill his 'family'.

[Patti]

That's just your opinion based on what evidence? 

[campion]

  I think it was a significant consideration in Nevill facilitating the exchange with the Foakes, who I doubt were happy about it It is to be pondered that Stan Jones would have selectively eradicated this occurrence and RS opinion in Witness Statements.
  'KISSusan' is meant complementarily, as 'keeping it simple Susan', whereby you hath a way of picking the bones out of something. Something akin to a cat with a rat on a mat.

[tonyb]

It always concerns me a locked thread,particularly one this long.i honestly haven't bothered to read it,it looks like the ramblings of a madman ( please note i do not insinuate the author is mad,I just use the phrase to give reason why I haven't bothered to read it ). Hopefully the new,new (new?) information in the new year will actually appear and have some substance. Fingers crossed.